Thug Type (The Punching man's Spirited)

[Santa Ajora]

Type: Thug

Description: Generally something of a Slow-witted brawler. Generally found as bouncers or guards at some areas as their large numbers can often compensate for the fact that they are slow and otherwise a bit easy to sneak up on. While not entirely stupid, those of this type do tend to be easy to anger and thick-headed, more prone to suffer from tunnel vision in the face of stress and danger.

Advantage:


Rank 1: 25% increase to Physical Stats (100 would be 125).

Rank 2: 50% increase to Physical Stats (100 would be 150).

Rank 3: Double Physical Stats (100 would be 200).

Rank 4: 150% increase to Physical Stats (100 would be 250).



Disadvantage:


Rank 1: 25% decrease to Senses and Instinct (100 would be 75). Healing Expertise reduced by 66% (100 would be 34). ES is locked at 0 regardless of Stat boosts.

Rank 2: 35% decrease to Senses and Instinct (100 would be 65). Healing Expertise reduced by 66% (100 would be 34). ES is locked at 0 regardless of Stat boosts.

Rank 3: 50% decrease to Senses and Instinct (100 would be 50). Healing Expertise reduced by 66% (100 would be 34). ES is locked at 0 regardless of Stat boosts.

Rank 4: 50% decrease to Senses and Instinct (100 would be 50). Healing Expertise reduced by 66% (100 would be 34). ES is locked at 0 regardless of Stat boosts.



Race Restrictions: Available to all Races except Akki.

Initial Weapons: One Starting Weapon (i.e. one Zanpakutō, one Doll, etc.)[/b][/u]

[Francis Grin]

There's only two things I personally disapprove of here: The free skill point, and the name. I personally would like to see it called Bruiser. In addition, the Level 3 and Level 4 bonuses still match up exactly with what Fighter v1 gives you, but I acknowledge that this is because this is just a palette swap of Spirited.

[Aramis Tezuka]

Would also like to point out a typo here. For level 4 it should be 250% not 150.

Other than that, it is a palette swap of Spirited, as mentioned that’s not necessarily a bad thing. We’re rather lacking in physical types that don’t leave you vulnerable to RS specialists, while there’s plenty of the opposite.

[Santa Ajora]

This was taken from the current types page, mimicking the spirited type with only "spiritual" changed to physical.

The name I would insist on.

And the skill is intrinsic to the theme of the type. The skill allows intense focus but at the expense of awareness. Paired with the reduction to calm mind I feel it id fairly balanced.

[Francis Grin]

OK, but if we want this to just be a palette swap of Spirited, then why are we adding extra things to it that aren't in the mirror type? This is especially glaring in the face that the lack of awareness is already represented by its sensory cuts. Add in the fact that there's only three types (Berserker, Cunning, and Skilled) that even give out free skills, and it just doesn't make sense to force this type to spend one skill point in a specific way.

[Kaen Youji]

As a compromise I think I would remove the requirement to have 1 point in Calm Mind, and instead, make the Disadvantage requiring one point in Focused Eye (instead of making it a free Skill Point). That way it's still a legit disadvantage while maintaining the "requirement" of having Focused Eye in the type.

If you're feeling particularly hard-ass you could make that requirement scale with level, so that at level 3 in the Class you need 3 SKP in Focused Eye, but I'm fairly tenuous on that one. 1 point is probably plenty. SKP Requirement drawbacks aren't REALLY drawbacks, since it's easy to build a character that can take advantage of them.

[Santa Ajora]

Truth be told, the skill inductions were only added in the event thay I was asked to give it a "unique drawback" as I have been in the past.
I am hy no means attatched to it. Also the disadvantage is not a requirement, it indices a limitin taking full points in calm mind as thugs are not calm.
Though again I am absolutely not attatched to this, if a mod responding to this thread informs me that this is unnecessary it will be removed.

[Himitsu Kasumi'Oji]

I think there needs to be some kind of SpPr restriction. Physical types are pretty strong, so a low reiatsu pool is a necessary check on them imo. If you don't want to add a stat cut to SpPr, have some type of cap on total reiatsu that scales with rank. Say, at rank 1, they can only have 150 points in SpPr. This goes up to 200 for rank 2, 250 for rank 3, and 300 for rank 4.

Also, the extra point in focus eye doesn't really fit with the type to me, nor is it balanced xD

With the changes I recommended above, I think it'd be okay to get rid of the HE restriction.

[Skoll Koryu]

I would like to step in and make a comment here on why I am not really a fan of this. Not so much that it's a spiritual mirror (heaven knows physical could use a few more that didn't utterly cripple them in some spiritual facet), but because of one major thing: speed getting a full boost increase. Strength/Speed is a huge difference from RS/SpPr. Why? Speed is such a variable stat that affects an enormous number of things that can turn the battle, far more than SpPr's offensive stat (which only applies to Release) and Reiatsu pool. Let's not even bring up cutback, given how rarely it happens.

Movement (both evasion, closing ground, and pursuit), attack speed (on that note, attack speed for EVERY physical attack, while spirituals usually have static speeds or set variables), step speed (dodge EVERYTHING if your speed is insane enough). Those are just some things that Speed affects, and can really affect a battle a lot more than an offensive stat/Reaitsu pool (the latter does allow for more techs, but means nothing if you can't hit).

My suggestions would be the following: Speed boost is half of the strength boost, so 25/25/50/75. This does still allow you to get up to 700 Speed full investment which is more than you ever will really need, without getting into the insane levels of 1000+ speed. I am actually semi-keen on a SpPr restriction, but lessened compared to ZK's; I'd say 200/250/300/350. 2000 Reiatsu for low-cost physicals at Rank 1 is reasonable, and honestly most physical fighters don't need an enormous amount of Reiatsu. If they do, they're not doing a physical fighter, they're a mixed fighter.

[Kaen Youji]

Gotta disagree with the two posters above me on this one.

RE: ZK's objections: There are plenty of Spirit-based types that don't impede physical strength out there, I don't think it's a requirement that all physical types need low stats as well. And if you don't think that's an issue, consider how many lower strength characters there are on the sight that could get broken in half by someone with just 300 strength. Having a low reiatsu pool is a pretty serious hit, and all but locks them out of high class Hoho techniques, due to the cost associated with them (Utsusemi probably being the biggest offender). It also heavily restricts physical-based fighters from having releases that can utilize a reiatsu pool. I think it's fine to let them have a largely unphased pool of reiatsu, as it opens up a lot of build options for physical fighters that are not otherwise available. If they delve too hard into the spiritual stats, they risk becoming a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

Though I do agree Focused Eye is unnecessary.


RE: Skoll's objections: I disagree with the complaints on speed. In the old days I'd be in full agreement, but speed's been nerfed enough with the 300 cap, that it's only really effective in bursts, and I don't see it being really a god stat. Plus, the reduced senses and instinct, actually inhibit the ability to use that speed to the fullest potential anyways.


My own thoughts: After building an arrancar build with this type, though, (said test build resulted in a character with very high stats across the board, with the only real drawbacks being 0 ES and only 75 instincts and senses), I do agree that some MINOR reduction is necessary, so what I would like to propose as an idea for this type is the "Shade exploit". I'm calling it that, because it's based on what Shade Kawada did with the Genius type to negate one of the stat drawbacks. Add a requirement that ONE combat stat, must be reduced by 25%, but that the user may choose which one-- including a boosted stat. If they choose a boosted stat, they only gain a 75% increase in that stat, instead of a 100% boost. This could be boosted at higher ranks, to compensate for the higher improvements.

[Zeich Yajuu]

Before I make my remark, I want to clarify that Skoll is me, to prevent any confusion.

While I have respect for you as one of our best if not the best physical fighter we have on the site, I have to disagree with your dismissal of the speed issue. While the 300 stamina cap is in place, the fact is that most people play stamina very loosely. Additionally, it's not just the stamina issue; for a long time now, people have used having a higher speed as an excuse to have a higher perception of speed because they have a faster frame of reference, or a better "baseline" that they've adapted to from experience. This heavily counteracts any penalties to Senses and Instinct because the person "is used to things happening faster," allowing them to claim a faster reaction than their stats may indicate. Until a hard ruling comes down on that situation, having an exceptionally high speed with that bonus means that the losses are negligible if not outright ignored.

And because you did it first and therefore it's cool, I'm going to call this the "Inverse Nex exploit," for that time where he made seeing things 100x faster allow him to move 100x faster.

[Kaen Youji]

I should clarify that my "dismissal of the speed issue" is not to say that speed is a poor stat-- it's still very strong. But it's no longer the dominating presence it once was, and as such, I don't personally consider it anymore powerful as a stand alone stat as Reiatsu Strength or Spirit Pressure. It has a LOT of advantages, yes, but so does Reiatsu Strength ("I can cast Bakudo spells that you literally cannot break out of" or "I can fire one-hit-kill reiatsu attacks") and Spirit Pressure ("I can spam Class 3+ spells for days"). It's a strong stat, yes, but I don't see any reason why there should be drawbacks to speed being buffed anymore than there should be drawbacks to strength, reiatsu strength or spirit pressure being buffed. All of those stats offer a lot of advantages, speed is no different in that regard.

As opposed to "old speed" where I absolutely would be on board with your complaints, where it was a god tier stat.

[Zeich Yajuu]

To some extent I agree, but I feel the points are only partially valid. For one thing, unbreakable Bakudo aren't as much of an issue now that we use OS as a general measurement rather than it requiring a pure RS v. RS which locked physical combatants in a lot of combat. But it was certainly an issue for a while because you could capture someone and from there it was your game. One-hit-kill moves mean nothing if you can't hit, meaning speed negates them, and actually ends up being the superior stat unless you are outfoxed or outmaneuvered. Spamming Class 3+ spells for day is the same issue, and on top of that, you have to consider that it drains as much stamina if not more than the person dodging them, so that person is likely to tire out before they run out of Reiatsu if they're firing non-stop.

While each stat has its advantages, Speed allows for multiple stats worth of advantages. A high Speed is like a pseudo-boost to Senses and Instinct, albeit a smaller one than a direct boost. And additionally, it fuels our instant-dodge buttons: step techniques. I won't get into that in this thread (that's an argument for a completely different situation), but basically, even at 200 speed combined with a step technique, Speed is absurdly powerful, allowing you to practically negate most things.

[Santa Ajora]

There is an enormous flaw however Z. Unlike spirited, which merely reduces es, thug zeroes it. This opens users up to an enormous ammount of sneak attacks or even just cleverly hidden abilities that unless the user is using some technique, they will have no way of knowing is coming. While the speed steroid does make them capable of dodging very well, the "senses" boost only applies to reaction time. Giving them a very distinct weakness as their ability to be aware of certain types of attacks becomes next to nothing if it has any sort of visual camouflaging, which the cut to senses will already make harder. Thus, if someone DID want to be super-dodgey, they would be forced to make a significant investment into senses and/or instinct in order to  compensate for the lack of ES.

That said, I have no problem with Kaen's idea of a floating debuff to either a boost or a spiritual.
Edit: At higher ranks* for the floater. At least rank 2. Otherwise the negatives suuuper outweigh the boosts and make it a pretty piss type to start with.
Skill stuff removed

[Francis Grin]

Ah, so some more posts here! Time for me to put in my thoughts as well, addressing the concerns brought up!

@zk: I very strongly disagree with the idea of giving Thug a SpPr limitation. The type is already saddled with some hefty Sensory dings, which limits the SP they can devote to their spirituals anyways. Adding in a cap to SpPr on top of that seems unnecessarily restrictive to me, as the type itself already does a good job of enforcing choices in your build. Also, it is *far* easier to build a release around Spiritual stats than it is Physical stats, mostly due to the 3x rule. Also, only two races actually has any technique support for Physical builds in the first place, ensuring that playing a physical build outside of those two races is less than rewarding, to say the least.

@z: For all of Speed's advantages (Which there undeniably are some), I see very few builds nowadays that go above 300 that simply didn't have it there before the speed changes. Hell, I already pointed out that SpPr and RS are far more supported than Speed and Strength are tech-wise. And the dodging benefits are overruled by the types sensory cuts. Sure, you're getting more speed, but your sensory stats are getting dumpstered hard.