So Free RP

[Remielle]

Effective immediately, any threads started in Free RP, are no longer valid to be moved to the main subforums for graded rewards.~Z

Does this include already started threads? Ray and I have a thing going in Free RP that, in my opinion at least, is a wholly decent thread that started in Free RP because he needed to finish Luke's powers (which weren't even relevant because we are both training tier). I would like clarification if this includes existing threads, or just newly created ones. Additionally, I would appreciate knowing why this rule is in place, as this kinda really stomps on the narrative I had started to weave for Remy if her thread with Luke doesn't actually get to exist.

[Zeich Yajuu]

This is effective for already-started threads as well. The reasoning is that people should not be doing work towards a character whose entire existence may change from the base or may not even be finished depending on the person creating it. For example, Luke's powers have been changed repeatedly and the guy hasn't been finished in the month and a half since his last grading which was only to rebalance his powers, so where's the guarantee he'll get finished aside from "I'll get him done?".

That, and Free RP is just that, a section that is intended for Free RP without being part of our site's grading system, not a system for people to get preemptive TP built up before they even get their character approved. Those threads that are already up for grading with completed characters are the last ones that will be receiving a grade. Any others will be reward-less, as is the intent of Free RP.

That being said, a Free RP can still keep the narrative aspects of it, so it's not like Luke "doesn't get to exist", it's just that no grades will be given for the thread itself. No grades =/= thread being completely invalid. However, if the character isn't even finished, and may never be finished, wouldn't that too "really stomp on the narrative"? This is the whole reason why Free RP threads are generally invalid for grading, and are not recommended for un-approved characters.

[Remielle]

Mar 27, 2016 13:17:30 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

The reasoning is that people should not be doing work towards a character whose entire existence may change from the base or may not even be finished depending on the person creating it. For example, Luke's powers have been changed repeatedly and the guy hasn't been finished in the month and a half since his last grading which was only to rebalance his powers, so where's the guarantee he'll get finished aside from "I'll get him done?".
(sic)
However, if the character isn't even finished, and may never be finished, wouldn't that too "really stomp on the narrative"? This is the whole reason why Free RP threads are generally invalid for grading, and are not recommended for un-approved characters.

So, your issue seems to rely on three key assumptions:

1. Their entire existence might change.
2. There's no guarantee they'll ever get finished.
3. I want things graded before both characters are approved. Note this one is not expressly stated, but implied by mentions of unfinished characters.

Point one is decently fair, but it's also hypothetical. If both characters are portrayed accurately to how their accepted app has them written, then this is a non-issue. In this specific case, nothing about Luke bar powers is being significantly altered, and those are irrelevant to a Class 8 thread. In general, I would simply recommend that before moving the thread out of Free RP, both posters have to edit up any details that don't quite fit with their final version of the character.

Points two and three are intertwined, and based on the false third assumption. I never stated I wanted to get anything graded before the characters were both accepted.

It all really comes down to the false assumption that there's a desire for TP to be doled out before characters are completed, or that this is some kind of attempt to game the system. Frankly, I find that latter part a bit insulting. In this case, the Free RP thread was done to help flesh both characters out by exploring how they would react to a fairly standard in-universe situation, a Hollow (Remy) on a rampage in the Human World (where Luke lives). This is similar to how stream of consciousness is used to help flesh out a character you are unsure about, but adapted for two people. As it was a formative writing exercise, it helped to define the characters, and them being massively changed away from what was portrayed is thus incredibly unlikely.

So, assuming we wait for both characters to be accepted before either finishing the thread or submitting it for grading, then we have two finished characters, with writing that accurately portrays them in character and adheres to all the guidelines for a valid type of thread. The only thing against it is that the thread started before they were approved. The entire point of the site is to write, and in my eyes, to explore the growth of characters. Blocking rewards based on when a thread started is the opposite of everything I thought the site stood for.

That aside, moving them out of Free RP and into an actual board, as I see it, is basically the process of the RPers saying "yes, this is something we want to be canon, and yes, this is accurate to how our approved characters actually are." I totally understand having a section where things don't get graded because characters aren't approved, but that doesn't answer the question of why the thread cannot be moved once the characters are approved. The only reasons you've presented so far rely on the assumption that the characters are unfinished, and thus are not valid if the characters are accepted.

Mar 27, 2016 13:17:30 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

However, if the character isn't even finished, and may never be finished, wouldn't that too "really stomp on the narrative"?

(Emphasis mine.)


I want to address this bit specifically, as it isn't directly on the other topic of official policy about Free RP. You're operating on the assumption that a character never gets done, which is blatantly disrespectful to that writer. Assuming the worst of someone else should never be put forth as a valid justification for official policy or rulings. I will apologize for the harsh words, but given that's pretty much your sole reason given here, and it seems to stem from a negative personal opinion of another member, it makes your reply come off as incredibly unprofessional. I'm open to counter points, but your opinion of a member should have no bearing on global site rules.

All that aside, this is now the third time that rules are changed or created that punished my characters before a first thread even finished. One being Xcution Rank changes, and the other being Hollow Consumption updates, before this latest one. I think a lot of players would appreciate some kind of warning saying "hey, we're going to make this change effective on this date" rather than immediate mandates to force a change. Regardless of the change, it really throws a wrench into things when you have to make edits to a character mid-thread. Having some kind of buffer to wrap threads up would be appreciated so that there is time to plan and react accordingly.

[Zeich Yajuu]

First off, tone down the aggression, because it's not appreciated. I'm sorry you don't like the rules changes, but this was a discussion between both myself and Kento, and I can even provide a log and timestamps for it, so it's not a single person's decisions, but the decision of two senior members who have had far more experience with the site and understand how changes need to be made.

Now, getting directly onto the argument at hand. You argue that this rule is based on a hypothetical, but let me raise a point in response to that: your thread is just as hypothetical. There's no guarantee a character will be finished, just as you claim there's no guarantee on my end that the character will not be finished. You're arguing a hypothetical versus a hypothetical. In this instance, yours is the benefit of the doubt, while ours is blocking a potential rule exploit. In this case, the exploit block takes precedence.

I'm going to reiterate my point: Free RP threads are not threads that are made with the intent to be graded. Free RP is meant to be fun or theoretical. If you want to make your Free RP canon, you're welcome to, but it's not going to be graded. Period. Whether or not it is canon, work done before a character is finished is not qualified for a grade. If you want to have the plot and interactions carry over? Knock yourself out, you're more than welcome to. I don't see any way in which it affects your character development or defining. So why's it a problem that you're not getting a grade again?

That aside, after my initial reading and irritation, I do think I caught a point that I think I wasn't getting from you before. Part of your premise is moving a thread from Free RP to the main site for the sake of having it listed as canon. It's not about the grade, but the placement. If that is the case, as I'm realizing now that I'm cooling down again, then that's a simple issue of rewording the new ruling. The main point of the ruling was that a thread started in Free RP would not be moved with the intent to be later graded. Again, we don't want people preemptively building TP because of possible changes. However, it's simple enough to reword the ruling: "Threads that are started in Free RP and moved to the subforums are not valid for grading." If this is the issue, then it's much more readily dealt with.

But again, in the future, tone down the aggression. I'm sorry you feel "insulted" that there's an assumption that people are willing to try and cheat the system, but it happens, and it happens enough that we need to make rules to deal with the situation. It's not that any particular person will, but that the possibility of anyone doing so exists. I'm sorry you think it's "disrespectful" to a writer to state that there's the possibility that a character may not be finished. None of these decisions were made with a particular person in mind (unless it's Slace, but after four years we have a precedent with him); I just happened to use Luke as an example because of the fact that he is the one involved in your thread and at the time of posting was still incomplete with no signs of progress. No assumptions were made that Luke would never be finished, but that the possibility exists, especially since 90 days is a pretty long period of no visible changes that often leads to characters getting scrapped.

Mar 27, 2016 17:54:06 GMT -5 Remielle said:

All that aside, this is now the third time that rules are changed or created that punished my characters before a first thread even finished. One being Xcution Rank changes, and the other being Hollow Consumption updates, before this latest one. I think a lot of players would appreciate some kind of warning saying "hey, we're going to make this change effective on this date" rather than immediate mandates to force a change. Regardless of the change, it really throws a wrench into things when you have to make edits to a character mid-thread. Having some kind of buffer to wrap threads up would be appreciated so that there is time to plan and react accordingly.

The reason that changes were made were due to either situations that were broken or abused, which is why these things come into play. Changes are made in response to the situations that come up, in the case of both Xcution and Hollow Consumption changes. Let me list specifically why each one was changed.

1) Being able to take a Rank 2 position as a Class 8 character? No. Rank 2 is roughly equal to early VC (Roughly a GOOD Class 4 or on average, Class 3), or a mid-tier position, not a starting character. That was why Xcution had to be reshuffled.

2) Hollow Consumption was changed to avoid having people literally set up situations in which they could consume something of a much higher level than them simply by saying "I set up X narrative convenience in order to kill something of Class 2 as a Class 7 and get a huge amount of TP for minimal work." Nuh-uh. Not happening.

I'm sorry these negatively affected you, but the first was a clear oversight that left a character more powerful than they should be at their Class, and the latter was an exploit that was patched up. Both of these were situations that needed to be dealt with. Additionally, situations in which this comes up doesn't require one to normally edit their character mid-thread (i.e. a characters stats don't have to change in the thread if their rank went down midway through it) and is only applied in future threads, so we don't ask someone to "make edits to a character mid-thread."

[☾ Aevus | Umbra ☽]

Just C/P your posts into a new thread and delete the ones made in the free rp once Luke is finished and approved. This clears up any problems and is an easy solution. Bo to the recue ^ ^

[Marcus Cole]

Bo... *facepalm*

[Asim Bakari]

Ok so I have to jump in on this and comment given I have a personal matter with this. Yes I understand free RP is not an area to farm tp before a character is made. However I do have an issue when we as a site have been before told and has been done countless times before that a thread has been started in free rp then moved over and graded for TP. So why the sudden change to it? To abuse the "farming"? The same amount of work still has to be done in free rp that is needed in a regular RP. The same time the same effort as well. Alot of people doing the free RP are also ones who are waiting a 2/2 and have been told by others that they can hop on the free RP board. So now the rules are telling people that they have to sit and wait for that 2/2 from a mod for something that maybe a minor fix here or there? Yes I understand that sometimes there is a major overhaul of a power or a character, but at the point when a character is 1/2 99% of the time it becomes a second balance issue that one mod has missed or feels can be abused.

In my free RP thread, it was meant to be a training but me and TV were waiting on a mod to give her a 2/2 so we could do a training together. We were told it was ok to just do a free thread and then have it moved over later on and graded as normal. Oh and a little fyi Jyuria is supposedly class 4 at this current moment before the thread was even sent in for grading, so it can't even be seen as a farming if she's already classed up four times.

[Zeich Yajuu]

The situation was that we were never supposed to allow Free RP to be used for earning TP at all. Kento and I have agreed that this was never to be the case. A Free RP for an unfinished character is there for someone to establish how their character works, their personality, working out any kinks in the person, etc. But it's not meant to be a graded thread. You should not be working towards advancing a character before it's even made. Yes, if your character is in the approval process, you have to wait. That's how the system works.

But short of it being your very first character (at which point you're new so at best a Free RP would be for you to learn the systems and how they work), between allowing multiple characters so you'll always have something to write. Even if it is, patience is a virtue; start a Free RP without the reward to pass the time. Talk to people in the chat. Read a book. The reason we have a delay in grading is because of our 2/2 system, which is put in place so that we can catch issues with multiple reviewers so that we don't have to go back and edit them later (and cause the same issue that Remi mentioned about having to completely re-edit the character). It creates a wait, yes, but it's a wait in place to ensure a balanced system.

[Amagai Kuchiki]

At the very least, I do think that all of the mods should have a discussion on this. I'm aware that Z and Kento spoke, and they are our HAMs, and I do trust them. However, ultimately our job as mods is to serve the member base and ensure that the site keeps running. Since so many members are outspoken against the current mod ruling on this subject, we should reconsult, as a whole, and reconsider our stance. It is likely that once it comes to a vote, the same result will be upheld, but I think it would more fair to the members to at least reevaluate our stance.

[Zou ۞]

Any of you who were around during the first 2-3 years of this forum's lifespan will be able to remember that I ran the show solo. I was sole staff, and my authority was the only authority. As time passed, I inducted staff onto this project, and introduced the 1/2 system. Those of you who remember the days when my presence was far more felt on this site will also remember that while I'm always willing to talk issues out with you, I'm never willing to work with someone that I find is rude or disrespectful. I'm seeing that disrespectful behavior right now.

It's in how you address staff over this issue. These are the two most senior staff members, and they were regular members on this forum before some of you were roleplaying. Yet, I'm seeing you argue with them endlessly about issues such as this. Do not systematically debate with staff. You have the right and my encouragement even to disagree. But through discussion, not debate. That means instead of saying that staff is wrong and trying to argue why they're wrong, you express only your opinion. "I feel that this isn't the best way to be fair." Not "this isn't fair because X, Y, Z."

It's not about authority. It's about acknowledgment of how hard staff has worked for you. To argue with them like this not only stresses out a staff that already deals with dozens of your issues on a weekly basis, but it demonstrates that you have neither sympathy nor empathy for people who are trying their best for you. They want you to have a fun time. They want things to be fair.

Fifty bucks says that many of you have benefited from intense one on one time with Kento, and that he works hard not only to help with story, power construction, and balance, but that he often forms a bridge between you and another grader, arguing your side and finding a common middle ground for you.

A hundred says that all of you have benefited from Z's organizational skills and his ability to rapidly grade, and that you know as well as I that in my absence, if he weren't around to help hold it all together, this forum would already have died and the show already would have ended. In a way, he's a lynchpin for the experiences that you enjoy here.

So why gang up on Z in this thread, and why blatantly disrespect a ruling from Kento and Z by debating it instead of discussing it politely? Don't you think they're entitled to politeness? And don't you think that they're entitled to some slack too?

I understand your frustration, especially if multiple rule changes have felt as if they're inconvenienced your plans. Let me promise you something. It's not a personal attack on you. It's not an insult to you. They aren't accusing you of being cheaters. Having a class 8 as a rank 2, being able to eat class 1 characters as a class 8 Hollow, or being able to mine TP before you even have an accepted character are all unfair. I repeat, this isn't about whether or not you're a cheater. It's that there have been cheaters on this site before. A lot of you remember and dislike Kid. If these loopholes were known during his time, he would have made a class 8 app and then mined TP to hit class 1 immediately upon acceptance. I wish I could say that no one on our site would ever cheat, but the truth is that there are people who have and there are people who do. For the sake of fairness, we need to make rules to prevent it before everyone starts trying to abuse the same loopholes and the situation spirals out of control. It's not because they think you'll cheat, but because they don't want other people to cheat you.

This rule interpretation most accurately reflects my intentions when I first made the grading system. Free RP has always been stated to be totally separate from the site. There have occasionally been exceptions as a result of exigent circumstances. That's just what they were. Exceptions. They are not precedents. Though I understand that on this forum staff has often used the past to justify the present, it's also true that the rules can change and have changed for a better future. As for this though, it's not a big change. It's an interpretation to reflect my intent. The grading system is meant to work like this. When you're in preapproval or 1/2, there's always that chance, no matter how slim, that another grader will catch something huge and fundamental to your character which is inherently unfair. No matter how slim that chance is, it exists, and we need to take care to be cautious about it so that everyone can be equal and have an equal experience.

So let's not call this what it isn't. Those of you who argue against this wanted that quick TP. It's been stated that you can easily keep the story you told. You can canonize that, meaning that your character has gained that experience. You just can't get a grading on it, which means this doesn't jeopardize any of your story plans. It only jeopardizes plans of gaining power more quickly. You say that you've put in the work to earn it, but the amount of work isn't the same. Getting a character passed completely through the approval process is work too, and that work includes the patience and bearing with the minor inconveniences and difficulties associated with having fairness. We sacrifice a little convenience in the name of fairness. We have to. So even if you're in 1/2 and expecting only minor changes, it doesn't mean you're entitled to enter a thread that gets a grading. You were never entitled to that.

Going forward, I feel it important that you the members try to have some empathy for staff. Should they have set an implementation date? Maybe. I'll concede that. It's a better way of handling it. In future, I'll advise them that they should. But in future, I'll also advise you that instead of being argumentative, you need to be cooperative. This is a community, and to make sure it stays that way, you need to be a community member. If you disagree with the rule and think your method of promoting fairness is better, you can share that opinion and discuss it, but don't attack staff with aggression, and don't endlessly argue or debate. You're not being targeted or victimized. I promise you that.

If we can move forward and try to be more understanding of each other, then that's all that I'll ask you for. I hope that we can resolve your feelings about this swiftly.

-Your Lord and Master, the Mighty Ad-Gin

[☾ Aevus | Umbra ☽]

To be honest from reading over what Remielle said more thoroughly, I don't see any form of aggression. Perhaps it was interpreted differently than intended. Though I can't be sure because I didn't write it and it's just how I personally feel it was conveyed. It seemed Remielle merely made a point to bring problems with not being told before a ruling is passed and how it could cause problems for other members as it did her. Yet I whole heartily agree with you possibly implementing a solution to the problem. That being put in the loop before a change is actually passed is genuinely a good idea. Also maybe we could allow those that are part of the forum to discuss and give opinions/solutions on future updates. Which would help stop fellow members from getting the short end of the stick. At least give them a heads up in the future and keep everyone up to speed. after all we’re a community and we should work together on this.