Prodigy V2 balancing

[Valentin Acciai]

Prodigy despite it's description is not a type which radiates talent in earlier ranks, in it's current state the type is so SP draining for new players that it is pretty much impossible not to be horribly crippled as a Training Tier character. Thus i was hoping that it would be feasible to ease up on the SP disadvantages for Rank 1 to make it less taxing and allow players to take on the full SP costs when they have gotten far enough to Rank up and hopefully have a more plentiful SP total by then.

Secondly i also noticed that in Rank 3 one stat is tripled while the other is doubled which seems unsymmetrical with the rest of the type's growth and a real bummer for whoever might desire ES or HE more than the spiritual abilities that come with it and remain locked out of it until the far away Rank 4 which makes a huuuge leap from x2 to x4.5. Thus to me it would seem more rewarding for those who rank up to Rank 3 to either have both stats tripled or reduce the former to x2.5 and increase the latter to x2.5 as well.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Old}Type: Prodigy Version 2

Description: Someone who is extremely skilled and has had a natural talent for things since a very young age. These individuals have skyrocketed ahead of their peers thanks to this natural talent. However, this talent is a double-edged sword that has occasionally caused them to become too accustomed to having it easy and not having to work hard, which can come back and bite them.

Advantage:

Rank 1: 50% increase to either Reiatsu Strength or Spiritual Pressure (100 would be 150). 50% increase to either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (100 would be 150). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Rank 2: Double either Reiatsu Strength or Spiritual Pressure (100 would be 200). Double either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (100 would be 200). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Rank 3: Triple either Reiatsu Strength or Spiritual Pressure (100 would be 300). Double either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (100 would be 200). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Rank 4: 350% increase to Reiatsu Strength or Spirit Pressure (100 would be 450). 350% increase to either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (100 would be 450). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Disadvantage: Select either Strength or Speed to decrease by 66% (100 would be 34). Instinct is decreased by 66% (100 would be 34). Select either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (whichever was not boosted) to be decreased by 66% (100 would be 34). A character may not “avoid” this drawback by leaving the Stat at 0. A Prodigy v2 must put at least 25 points per Rank (up to 100 SP at Rank 4) in the Stat being decreased. Characters of this Type cannot take points in either Calm Mind or Lack of Fear (or equivalents thereof), and are also prone to mental instability and mental games.

Race Restrictions: Available to all Races.

Initial Weapons: One Starting Weapon (i.e. one Zanpakutō, one Doll, etc.)

---------------------------

SPOILER: Click to show

{New}Type: Prodigy Version 2

Description: Someone who is extremely skilled and has had a natural talent for things since a very young age. These individuals have skyrocketed ahead of their peers thanks to this natural talent. However, this talent is a double-edged sword that has occasionally caused them to become too accustomed to having it easy and not having to work hard, which can come back and bite them.

Advantage:

Rank 1: 50% increase to either Reiatsu Strength or Spiritual Pressure (100 would be 150). 50% increase to either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (100 would be 150). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Rank 2: Double either Reiatsu Strength or Spiritual Pressure (100 would be 200). Double either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (100 would be 200). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Rank 3: Triple either Reiatsu Strength or Spiritual Pressure (100 would be 300). Triple either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (100 would be 300). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Rank 4: 350% increase to Reiatsu Strength or Spirit Pressure (100 would be 450). 350% increase to either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (100 would be 450). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Disadvantage:

Rank 1: Select either Strength or Speed to decrease by 40% (100 would be 60). Instinct is decreased by 40% (100 would be 60). Select either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (whichever was not boosted) to be decreased by 40% (100 would be 60). A character may not “avoid” this drawback by leaving the Stat at 0. A Prodigy v2 must put at least 25 points per Rank (up to 100 SP at Rank 4) in the Stat being decreased. Characters of this Type cannot take points in either Calm Mind or Lack of Fear (or equivalents thereof), and are also prone to mental instability and mental games.

Rank 2,3,4: Select either Strength or Speed to decrease by 66% (100 would be 34). Instinct is decreased by 66% (100 would be 34). Select either Energy Sensory or Healing Expertise (whichever was not boosted) to be decreased by 66% (100 would be 34). A character may not “avoid” this drawback by leaving the Stat at 0. A Prodigy v2 must put at least 25 points per Rank (up to 100 SP at Rank 4) in the Stat being decreased. Characters of this Type cannot take points in either Calm Mind or Lack of Fear (or equivalents thereof), and are also prone to mental instability and mental games.

Race Restrictions: Available to all Races.

Initial Weapons: One Starting Weapon (i.e. one Zanpakutō, one Doll, etc.)

[Aramis Tezuka]

Will comment on this further once I’m off work, however I’d like to note that the 4.5x increase is a typo. It specifically noted the increase is 350%. I would well know as I have a Rank 4 Prodigy v2 (also made the type so small thing that, albeit I am by no means infallibleas the typo suggests).

[Valentin Acciai]

It's just a different method of doing multiplication isn't it?

If x4.5 is incorrect how would 100 become 450? x1.0 would mean the regular unmodified number and on top of that you have the increase itself, 350% which makes x4.5

[Zeich Yajuu]

Teeeechnically they're the same thing. It's a 350% increase (remember that 1x = 100% and 100 + 350 = 450) but it ends up being a 4.5x multiplier. (450% = 4.5x, 4.5/1 = 4.5). Math is weird. (Edit: Ah, I see what the typo was. My bad.)

Edit: Now that I'm actually at my computer, I can comment on the Type.

First, while I see your point, pushing the drawbacks to Rank 2 doesn't help much. Rank 2 is extremely easy to get for most races, so in the end you'll still be hitting those bigger penalties rather quickly, even if not immediately.

Second, you speak for the secondary bonus to either ES or HE, and how it's lesser, but tbh you don't really need large multipliers in those. An ES of around 200 (300/400/400/700(?) with bonus) is more than what anyone would really need to rely on, especially given the increased spiritual sensitivity that comes with it. Someone Releases in your face? Enjoy the mental overload from your too-sharp spiritual senses exploding on you. HE is only valuable at extremely high multipliers, so unless you're dumping enough to hit the 800 threshold it's not going to help much, especially when it locks you to a healing Release unless you're an Arrancar, Mod Soul, or Akki. If you need that 400 for HSR as an Arrancar, even the doubling bonuses from Rank 2+ should be enough (especially since you need a Rank 3 position to get Segunda as well).

tl;dr I feel that the bonuses and disadvantages at current are fine. The real issue with taking this Type tends to be the harsh Instinct cut, as that's a pretty major stat, yet the description of the Type justifies it quite well.

[Himitsu Kasumi'Oji]

The multiplier listed is wrong. It’s supposed to be a 3.5 multiplier (a 250% increase). I play a rank 4 prodigy V2, and his offensive stat is supposed to cap at 1400. A 4.5 multiplier would boost it to 1800, and while I’d enjoy that personally, it’s not very balanced I’ll fix the typo when I’m out of class

[Aramis Tezuka]

Okay, so. Off work, got my computer. Can do better typing than phone and articulate better responses.

First off-- yeah, the numbers. As Prodigy v2 was designed to be a spirit-focused mirror of Prodigy v1 (albeit with some minor tweaks), in many cases I took the same text from Prodigy v1 and mirrored it to reflect spiritual stats. Certain parts bolded for emphasis.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Prodigy v1}
Type: Prodigy Version 1

Description: Someone that has been very skilled and incredibly good at learning since a young age. This is a very rare person to come across. While these people are skilled and powerful, they may be severely unbalanced by weakness in other measures. Their strength magnifies consistently with age.

Advantage:

Rank 1: 50% increase to either Speed or Strength (user picks in pre-approvement) of a Non-Typed character (100 would be 150). 50% increase to either Energy Sensory or Senses (user picks in pre-approvement) of a Non-Typed character (100 would be 150). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a Class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Rank 2: Double either Speed or Strength (user picks in pre-approvement) of a Non-Typed character (100 would be 200). Double either Energy Sensory or Senses (user picks in pre-approvement) of a Non-Typed character (100 would be 200). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a Class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Rank 3: Triple either Speed or Strength (user picks in pre-approvement) of a Non-Typed character (100 would be 300). Triple either Energy Sensory or Senses (user picks in pre-approvement) of a Non-Typed character (100 would be 300). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a Class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).

Rank 4: 350% increase to either Speed or Strength (user picks in pre-approvement) of a Non-Typed character (100 would be 350). 350% increase to either Energy Sensory or Senses (user picks in pre-approvement) of a Non-Typed character (100 would be 350). Capable of using higher-Class techniques a Class early (capable of using Class 2 techniques at Class 4 instead of Class 3).


Disadvantage: Drawback for all Ranks: 66% decrease in Healing Expertise and Instinct (100 would be 34). 66% decrease in Spiritual Pressure or Reiatsu Strength (100 would be 34. Pick during pre-approvement) Personality requirement: Mental instability. More prone to crack under pressure.

Race Restrictions: Available to All Races.

Initial Weapons: Can start with two, though this is optional. A Shinigami of this Type can develop two different Shikai with different abilities that merge together in Bankai, while a Bount can start with two Dolls instead of one and end with a total of four Dolls. No new Release technique slots are gained, so techniques are spread thinner among more weapons. Bonus weapon is limited to Shinigami and Bount.

Actually, keep that spoiler in mind, it's gonna be important to note for a lot of my points. But yeah, my bad, on the precise wording, but in my defense, Prodigy v1 uses the same wording to reflect a 3.5x increase.


Addressing your other points now.

Prodigy despite it's description is not a type which radiates talent in earlier ranks, in it's current state the type is so SP draining for new players that it is pretty much impossible not to be horribly crippled as a Training Tier character.

Prodigy v2 allows you to learn techniques a class earlier than any other. I'd qualify that as "radiating talent". You are skyrocketing ahead of your peers, and using and mastering techniques none of your peers can even LEARN yet. You learn and adapt much faster than any other type at a comparable class, and by rank 2, you're getting stat boosts to your reiatsu stat, that most other types offer at Rank 3 or even 4. And at Training Tier? When compared to your peers, your ability to use Higher Classed Techniques FAR outstrips the advantages conferred by what, at that point is MAYBE a 20 point gap in stats.

Thus I was hoping that it would be feasible to ease up on the SP disadvantages for Rank 1 to make it less taxing and allow players to take on the full SP costs when they have gotten far enough to Rank up and hopefully have a more plentiful SP total by then.

So yes, first note, is see the above point about having an advantage with Techniques. Secondly, while the 66% drain on strength or speed SUCKS at low ranks, as a Prodigy v2, you should not be relying on your physical stats heavily at low ranks anyways. If you're getting into fisticuffs as a Prodigy v2 at low ranks, you are doing it wrong. The 66% drain on Instinct is largely negligible at low ranks, because everyone's instinct sucks at low ranks. The only real pain in the arse is having to put 25 SP into HE or ES when you only have 280 to spend, and to be fair, I could concede that point at low ranks.

Secondly i also noticed that in Rank 3 one stat is tripled while the other is doubled which seems unsymmetrical with the rest of the type's growth and a real bummer for whoever might desire ES or HE more than the spiritual abilities that come with it

Firstly, if you're looking for high HE and Reiatsu-based abilities or ES and Reiatsu-based abilities that place a greater emphasis on the non-combat stat, we have other types for that. Support comes to mind pretty readily. Secondly, Prodigy v2 is hardly the only type that provides assymetrical gains. Lost Sense, Cunning, Freak, Shadow, Soul Specialist v1, Support all provide asymmetrical boosts. Additionally, with a reiatsu-boost as high as Prodigy gets, along with the other perks, it's still a very strong type.

Thus to me it would seem more rewarding for those who rank up to Rank 3 to either have both stats tripled or reduce the former to x2.5 and increase the latter to x2.5 as well.

This I am fiercely opposed to. Prodigy v2 fills an actually fairly unique niche, in that, while we have no shortage of reiatsu boosting types, very few of them actually boost above 2.5x even at Level 4, and at Class 3, most are only wobbling around 2x increases. The distinguishing factor among reiatsu-boosting types tends to be varying drawbacks, rather than varying primary strengths. Most of the reiatsu boosting types that go above that 2x margin, usually sacrifice a MAJOR component of the character, all but forcing the character's very concept to be built around the type. As far as I can recall, the only types that provide a boost comparable to Prodigy v2, are the Technique Master (which sacrifices the character's entire release), the Kenpachi (again, sacrifices the release), The Lunatic (which most people on the site, I think would agree is BARELY viable, due to taking absurd levels of stat cuts in everything else), the Cripple (which forces a character to be... well. Crippled), and the Soul Specialist (which has the twin drawbacks of abysmally low stats outside of release, and either insanity or a three post-release, depending on which version of Soul Specialist you used). In this giant wave of severe drawbacks, Prodigy v2 is one of the only types that actually allows you to benefit off a high Reiatsu Strength, without necessarily making you forced to build a character around the type's drawbacks. The entire type's identity is, (in my opinion), tied into that very sharp spiritual stat boost, and nerfing it down for the sake of improving it at lower ranks would just make it another Clown or Spirited Type, which I would very much like to avoid.


Concessions

If you're looking at Prodigy v1 and noticing that Prodigy v2 had some of its features stripped (such as the dual weapons, no mandatory SP into weakened stats, and yes symmetrical gains), you're not mistaken. Prodigy v2 was built during a period that Reiatsu Strength was the only stat that mattered when it came to determining offensive strength. A time where Reiatsu Strength and Speed were considered "God Stats", and that a boost to Reiatsu Strength as high as Prodigy gave, usually came with MAJOR drawbacks with regards to character creation itself. So yes, at the time that Prodigy v2 was made, giving it a spiritual boost that high, along with all the other perks of Prodigy v1 would have made it the most gamebreaking type on the site. So when designing it, I muted a number of its tertiary features, including weakening the secondary stat boost, to make it not SUCH an obvious choice.

Whether or not that makes it overkill now that Reiatsu Strength is no longer the god stat it used to be? ...Possibly, but I would argue that Prodigy is still a VERY strong type in the right hands.

As for the "Required SP into your dump stat"... Yes, it weakens the type. No, I'm completely against removing it. Healing Expertise is such an easy stat to just take as your dump stat, and throw no SP into it, completely removing the value of using it as a type drawback. The required SP is actually meant to make you THINK before you just go: "Yeah but I'm not using a healer or regenerating character, so I'll just take the Healing Expertise as the cut stat, and leave it as 0, completely negating the drawback." Which yes. That's been done. And it bugged me then, it bugs me now, so I'm gonna fight to keep that a part of this type.

Anyways, here's the thing. Prodigy is not an EASY type. It's not a "Beginner" type. It is a type I would only recommend to site veterans, because unless you know exactly what you're doing, it's an easy type to screw up and be left with a completely dysfunctional build. If you know how to build it properly though, then it's a pretty powerful type at all levels, including the much horrified Class 8, where (as mentioned above) the ability to use higher level techniques, is going to make a MUCH bigger difference than the ability to have 20-30 higher SP in a physical stat.

----

Overall, I think the type is fine. It's not god-tier, but it's still very strong if (and here's the key phrase:) If you know what you are doing with it. I think it's in a very good place right now, and outright buffing it at this point would push it into overpowered status, while nerfing it at this point would make it borderline useless. Some quality of life buffs might be fine (such as your proposed alterations for Rank 1 of the type), but I think those would have to be looked at VERRRRY carefully, even then, because that "learns techniques a rank earlier" is actually hella powerful at low ranks. It fills a unique niche, and it does that niche very well, but shouldn't be picked if you're not trying to fit into that niche.

[Valentin Acciai]

Thanks for the speedy and detailed replies, feels good when someone invests that much writing in picking out the pro's and con's of my suggestions. Pity they don't seem to be needed but hey, at least the deceptive typo will be dealt with.

[Aramis Tezuka]

Dec 5, 2017 5:43:36 GMT -5 Valentin Acciai said:

Thanks for the speedy and detailed replies, feels good when someone invests that much writing in picking out the pro's and con's of my suggestions. Pity they don't seem to be needed but hey, at least the deceptive typo will be dealt with.

You saw what you construed as a problem, you brought it to attention. Nothing wrong with that, and for what it’s worth, I think your rank 1 adjustment to drawbacks would be a good quality of life improvement for the type. It’s just not necessarily one it explicitly needs.

[Valentin Acciai]

I know this thread is long dead and gone and i'll admit i'm writing this at midnight a little drowzy but despite all the time that has passed my doubts of this type remains very strong. When the type is such a destroyer of class 8th why is it available to rank 1s? it really would benefit from scaling downsides to spare newbies who get adventurous a lot of trouble they'll come to regret. And with spiritual strength not being the god stat it was back then, is it not time to adapt the type to the site balance of today? As of current my only character is a prodigy v2 and I've been trying to push through but with things always so heavily stacked against the type i'm starting to give up on it in it's current state, and knowing i wont be able to reach much of a HE potential until i reach the gargantuan task that is rank 4 find myself drawn towards other types i don't fully think i will enjoy. I've got the options of support which while a strong type doesn't reach the heights of HE i seek and Genius which most know is a hassle with it's fatigue although it is incredibly powerful while they last. There really isn't much option for someone who wants HE as well as at least some boost in an offensive stat as to not be useless on their own.

If i'm making any sense please chime in, if it sounds like the grumpy complaints of a manchild go ahead and ignore it, i won't mind. I'll just have to live with another type.

[Col Arana]

"When the type is such a destroyer of class 8th why is it available to rank 1s? it really would benefit from scaling downsides to spare newbies who get adventurous a lot of trouble they'll come to regret."

Because lower ranks can take advantage of its ability to learn techniques a class earlier, which applies right down to the bottom. I don't deny it's a hard type to make work at Level 1 rank, but with a handful of exceptions like Leader, I disagree with the notion of limiting a specific type to specific ranks, and feel people should be able to experiment and use whatever types they feel fit the character they're trying to make.

As of current my only character is a prodigy v2 and I've been trying to push through but with things always so heavily stacked against the type i'm starting to give up on it in it's current state, and knowing i wont be able to reach much of a HE potential until i reach the gargantuan task that is rank 4 find myself drawn towards other types i don't fully think i will enjoy.

Doubled Healing Expertise is still a pretty solid boost, relative to most other types. Especially when you can get it at rank 2. Rank 2. If you look at the vast majority of other types, their rank 2 is usually playing around with 50% or 75% increases, not straight up doubling. Now, to be fair, there are not a lot of HE bolstering types that aren't the Medic type, so in this case, you may have a point, but I don't think that's an issue with Prodigy v2, so much as the variation in types in general mainly focusing on offensive stats as opposed to tertiary stats (Maybe you could make some kind of type like "Combat Medic?")


rpforumbleach.proboards.com/thread/8859/hey-talk-prodigy  This may be a relevant thread to your interests incidentally.