Discussion of Defenses (Open Forum)

[Zeich Yajuu]

Alright so, I've been trying to open up a bit more transparency on the forum, and I'm going to try to encourage people to speak up and open more discussion threads like this so that we, as a community, can address potential issues or even changes that may be needed. Lately we've had a few rough times, particularly this last little bit with Free RP, and it's come to my attention that we need to have more discussions and less direct decisions. Some things will still be staff-only, such as immediate game-breaking situations or simple rehauls of older things, but when it comes to major situations that aren't in need of immediate action like the Xcution changes (that could have been brought to further discussion at the time, for example), I want to try and open up a little more discussion with you all. So this is going to be my first attempt at such.

Now, here's the discussion at hand: Hierro and Blut, or more specifically, ongoing defensive techniques. There's no one particular time this has come up, but it's an ongoing consideration that I want to bring up as a topic of discussion. We'll start with Hierro. My concern is this: While Hierro is no longer infallible the way it used to be (constant RS-level strength in a time where RS was the only stat that mattered against it), I feel that the reduction on it is not really a significant drawback anymore. Eight posts have to pass, and two guaranteed hits are required. Eight posts is a very long time in a PVP, as most run, at most, about ten posts on each side. This is an average, not a constant, and of course there will be exceptions. But I feel that in its current state, that drawback is really non-effective, so I want to discuss perhaps adapting it.

I am thinking that halving the posts will be sufficient, to start with. Four posts for the 20% reduction, six posts for the 40% reduction, and eight posts for complete ignoring. I feel that this would still make Hierro valid over a good portion of the relevant fight, while still giving it a chance to be broken down and make the powerful defense slightly less so.

Blut is in much of the same boat, except that it can't be worn down. Sure, it can't be used simultaneously with Blut Arterie, but it still is a powerful defense. The ongoing cost recently added to it is a good balance for it as well, but given how much Reiatsu a Quincy can regain a post it feels like it may perhaps need to be worn down or similar. At Class 4, they're at a loss of 300/post no matter what, so it feels balanced there. Class 3, they lose 300 every other post. Class 2, we're suddenly up to a profit of 500 Reiatsu per post with this constantly active. Naturally, I don't want to nerf this Reiatsu regeneration given that it's a core ability of Quincy, so instead I'm thinking perhaps a wear-down effect be instituted for Blut just like Hierro.

So, this is open to the floor for discussion. If you have thoughts, opinions, or questions, please raise them here.

[Ryunosuke Hamada]

My main question is do we actually need to nerf Hierro and Blut? I feel like at the high levels of combat, where such techniques would logically be the most oppressive, people generally know how to fight around them. I also think that both techniques grant their respective races unique strengths, and I'm very much in favor of each race having unique strengths, since I feel like it leads to interesting choices in what race you play, and how individual fights work out.

And as far as Hierro goes, yes, the drawback doesn't matter much, but does it need to? It gives a clear counterplay (attrition and waiting) to a technique that can already be beaten in a multitude of ways (if we want, I can list them, but that feels like a waste of time). I have less to say in defense of Blut, other than pointing out our already lack of Vandenreich, and suggesting that we don't give people even more reasons not to bother with them.

Also, I'm posting from Ryu for full transparency in terms of my alleged biases, but ultimately, I'd have this opinion even without an Arrancar. 

[Myzaraphiston Synderfell]

Actually, Hierro is fine as it is, in my mind. I'm not just saying this as someone who runs an Arrancar, either. There's a wide variety of ways for multiple races to simply make Hierro not matter, from the HWD being able to boost their stats to a ridiculous degree to the various tech workarounds that exist for Shini. Blut a bit more of a concern due to its more total defense (no weak points in the eyes or orifices), but again, there are ways to work around it, like a high strength character giving them Shaken Baby treatment.

However, there is one problem for me that came to light recently. And that is the idea that apparently the skin defenses work normally in a clash, thus making lower-class techniques useless against them, even if said techniques would normally fall into the stat range that beats the defense. This, in my mind, is grossly imbalanced if true, especially when it comes to the custom defenses. For example, this interpretation means that Hierro Ultima would make any technique of Class 3 or lower completely useless unless it tripled the value of the defense. This literally would mean that even Sozen's base Shikai or Soul Bind absolutely useless on Adalo, even if he was in the necessary stat range. It's even worse for just base Blut, which requires a superiority to begin with.

My second concern in relation to the skin defenses is that they are far from the best defenses on the site. No, that role goes to Stepping Techs. They are pretty much a get out of jail free card for just about any attack, and there are far less checks to them than there are to skin defenses. And yet despite their blatantly more powerful nature, there isn't really any apparent desire to make changes to them to make them more balanced or limited.

So, in short, I believe skin defenses are fine, despite the fact that it needs to be clarified that they don't function normally in a clash (or that rule should be changed if they do function in a clash). It's stepping techniques that need the real changes, not skin defenses.

[Kento Waffles]

I have no Arrancar or Quincy characters, unless you want to count Baal, an NPC that's not even completed and has in fact never come into actual combative play for players except for a cinematic against my own Sozen and Kenryoku and Zou's Kuroi. In fact, I play almost predominantly Soul Reapers. Scratch that, currently I ONLY have Soul Reapers, making Arrancar and Quincy my natural enemies. I'm posting from that perspective.

I don't think Hierro or Blut need any changes at all. I've never had any problems with them whatsoever. In fact, the POINT of them is that yes, at lower levels, they are a tremendous bitch to deal with. They're not weak techniques. They're strong, and are incredibly difficult to overcome when you're a lower level character. This makes perfect sense. They are advantages which are in place specifically to give a certain racial advantage, as it is clear both here and in actual Bleach that races are not equal. They are not intended to be equal in terms of raw power or even their flexibility. It's just some races have varying advantages. Soul Reapers get a huge amount of versatility. HWD dominate the stat game. Arrancar have tremendous raw power. This is a perfect balance already. As is, Hierro and Blut should not need to be nerfed any further. 4 posts to wear it down is ridiculous in my opinion. That's EXTREMELY short. You've barely even flirted and tested your opponent out at that point. By 8 posts, that's when you've started going all out to begin with. Even then, 8 posts is just half a page. With two opponents, that means it's only taken you 1 page. No one should be telling me they can't deal with 1 page to weaken Hierro a bit. And if it takes THAT long to burn down the Hierro, then you were screwed to begin with because their offensive capacity VASTLY overwhelmed yours to begin with. And, as Rudy said, there are a tremendous number of ways around both defenses. Neither is in any need to be nerfed. Getting around them has never been a problem.

Addressing Mou's concern about class clash, they've actually been in a tricky place for a while. Though it's never been written, the way I've seen them played is that it's been based purely on offensive stat, BUT that they can still be overwhelmed by 2-class superiority. Meaning, one way class clash applies. The exception to this has been Hierro Ultima, which has a stated class clash effect upon Adalo releasing while Hierro Ultima is active. And that's perfectly fine. Adalo is a class 0 character, and once you're fighting him on equal terms, Hierro Ultima is just a cinematic problem at best. Getting around it honestly wasn't even remotely problematic for me. I only gave Sozen some trouble for story value. BUT, even if we do apply class clash rules, I see no problem. Hierro is class 3. Blut is class 2. By the classes at which you can learn them, nearly all characters have counters to these defenses. Plus, we've forgotten something CRUCIAL to Blut and to Hierro. They are defeated by stage 2 releases AUTOMATICALLY. With some exceptions of custom Hierro, that is how it has been for a long time now. This was the explained reason (by Zou) for why the Vandenreich felt the need to develop Bankai steal. To prevent their precious Blut from being destroyed. But, Bankai steal is not automatic. It has counter-methods, and can be dodged the way a Cero can. Therefore, nerfing of Blut or Hierro is pointless. They're not even remotely overpowered, and I think changing them from how they are now would just be toning down too much. We're not trying to make it so low class characters can fight high class characters. That's ridiculous. Class difference literally separates character strengths. That's the purpose of it. Even class 2 vs class 1 has a big difference. It's like Renji with Bankai fighting Byakuya, an experienced Captain. Sure, they've both got Bankai, but remember what happened? Renji got TRASHED. And so is the same here. Yes, class difference should give you a bigass amount of trouble. That's logical.

So, for Mou's thing about step techniques. They DO have a per post limit and a HUGE stamina cost. Whether or not you play by the stamina cost is up to you, but anyone can call you out for it if you aren't adhering properly or you're ignoring that. Continuing from there, I actually appreciate their supposed "get out of jail free" status, though I've never seen them that way given I've seen so many ways to stop them from being effective. Step techniques are hard to counter, yes. They should be. It's lame if a fight is easy to end. If we change step techniques, it'd just be for people who want to gib each other. Having that "get out of jail free" allows fights to prolong and have story. And, plus, that mirrors Bleach fights very well too. That's what's good about step techniques.

So, those are my two cents on it.

[Tsajara Dread]

Super late to the discussion, however in response to Kento's mention that stage 2 release trumps hierro and blut, I had a question.

Doea this apply to release-like abilities?
For one: Nit every race has a stage two, in face several races dont have releases at all. And those that DO have that second stage, well...to my present knowledge thats shinigami and arrancar. But not everyone gets to have stage 2. Especially when those stage releases rely on either a rank in an org or that you specifically belong to an organization. So I guess specifically Im referring to Arrancar, where if you don't belong to Las Noches its tough titties for you.
So anywho, does this bypass work for non-release stuff that has class superiority?

[Asim Bakari]

I mean if I may there are tons of techs that actually bypass hierro and blut a lot of which aren't reserved.

Output stage one

[Stage 1: Push]: This power coats the user in a sort of "Output Aura." It does two things. First, awareness can extend out by two more inches. This means someone will become more aware of an incoming attack two inches of distance from the attack earlier than normal. It means that one can try to use this to predict enemies, though not as successfully as actual prediction or reading. The secondary point expands "damage." Essentially, it bypasses defenses. A human using this is completely immune to cutback effect regardless of state, and this extends to weapon uses too. Hierro is also completely ignored during use of Push. This defense ignoring is only present during physical attacks. Reiatsu-based strikes can still meet Hierro resistance. This lasts for 5 posts, and costs 100 Reiatsu.

and

Technique Name: [Sandjouken (Lit. Shotgun Fist)]

Class: [4]

Technique Type: Other

Technique Element: none

Technique Description and Effects:

An intense burst of sharpened reiatsu, augmented by the user's physical strength. If visible it takes the form of a number of spikes that rapidly form from the end of the users fist during a punch, Although you need an ES of at least 200 to be able to see the spikes. It was adapted to fight against Hierro when the zanpakuto was disabled, but it was soon discovered anyone could learn it, even the Arrancar it was designed to fight.

It adds 75% of the users strength to 25% of their RS for the strength and RS of the attack. ( 75% str + 25% RS = Atk RS and Str)

OR

75% RS and 25% Strength for the strength and RS of the attack (25% Str + 75% RS = Atk RS and Str)

It allows the physically weak to use their Reiatsu to inflict physical damage, and it allows the physically strong to use their strength to inflict reishi damage.

How to use technique:
To activate this technique the user must focus their Reiatsu into compressed spikes underneath the skin on their hand, and release them as they punch. It takes a decent amount of reiatsu control, but is easier to learn than kido.

Technique Drawbacks:

Every time this technique is used it costs 150 reiatsu and damages the user's hand by tearing up the skin.

The user must choose which strength/reiatsu strength combination they want when they learn this attack, and it cannot be changed without relearning the attack. You cannot know both versions of the technique at the same time.

To learn this technique you must have 2 in any martial art.

Made By: Unknown

Both techs are made to counter heirro/blut and these are two of the most easily used techs and shotgun fist is able to be learned by anyone no matter the race or type. I really don't think that there is a big lack of ways to get around these techs, let's also not forget the fact that you can still cook, drown, freeze, and electrocute someone to death using either blut or heirro. Both techs stop penetrating actions, not other effects. Yes Blut and heirro are strong, but in the grand scheme of everything they have plenty of weaknesses that can be exploited by any member of the site no matter the race.