Talk about the Quincy changes.

[Wycliff]

While I know that the mods spent a bunch of time and effort working on the new quincy update I have to say as one of the longest running quincy players I personally hate this rework. I understand the logic behind this rework on their powers the truth is, this change essentially weakens a quincy's ability to fight by more than half as well as instead of improving on their current ability to out play opponents it now limits them to half of their arsenal at any given time.

Before I go over what I feel like has weakened the quincy I will go over things that I feel are fine and well deserved changes. The primary ones being access to a quincy's power a lot earlier on than before. Before having to be class two to essentially access what was in terms of power a quincy's shikai was rather silly given that other races had access to the base of their power at class four and by the time class two was gained for other races's most of them had accessed the second level or final level of their release. Which compared to quincy was at a much lower CTP level. The cost per post removed from using the properties of a quincy release. While quincy do have the natural regain granted to them by the quincy cross, they still had the highest cost release per post period. With bow level one costing 100 reiatsu, bow level two costing 300(if i'm not mistaken) and bow level three costing a whopping 500 reiatsu per post and that was just to have it active, that didn't include any additional costs using the property in and of themselves nor did it factor in arrow costs. While this was offset by the reiatsu regain for the most part it also seemed to be rather costly for no other reason especially when compared to other race's release and the post duration. The last thing I actually do like about this change is the lowered reiatsu regain when using your arrow properties. The quincy regain was something that was well abused by every quincy, including me. You always had a net gain of reiatsu each post even after attacking and even if you didn't you could hold back and wait a bit before getting some back the next post. With a lower regain when using properties it solves this issue fairly and with a well balance. I am 100% for this as it makes sense and it's balanced.

Now with the positives said and done I'm going to go into what I feel was some of the worst decisions made in this rework starting off with the total removal of bow level and the implications it has for quincy. You removed the quincy's release, so my question is with no more reelase and now having a property apply to arrows does that mean that quincy can't stop cutback? Because that's certainly how that looks, mind you this seems to be a minor over site that I'm sure isn't true and just needs to be said that using properties will allow you to get past cutback if needed, but it still needs to be cleared up, because as it stands right now quincy powers seem to be somewhat like a hollow's tech pool and we know that those techs don't counter cutback, however this is in fact the tiniest issue I've seen with the rework and in fact I only bring it up to clear up a minor oversight that seems to be looked over. With the removal of bow level you also got rid of a quincy being freely able to change their bow form. Why? Why was that seen as something necessary to do? We have seen before clearly in the manga that quincy bows are able to take different shapes and forms based on their user and even on the site we have had powers based on the shape the bow has taken. It was a reflection of the user and the way they fought, so why now remove the free ability to shape a user's bow and turn it into a form property that then can't be used with another one? Most quincy had unique and interesting bows based on who they were depending on each level and now you've stripped away that uniqueness and forced them to pick if they actually want that to affect their arrow or their bow, but not both at the same time. I don't see how that is an improvement in the least bit. Please tell me the rationality behind this? It would be the same as removing the weapon forms of a fullbring item and allowing the user to keep it's properties or when a shingami uses shikai their sword doesn't change shape it just gets more powers.

Talking about powers why do quincy now have a limit on how many properties they can use at any given time? How is limiting a person to choose half of their power set at any given time fair or balanced? Especially given that all powers on this site are meant to build up upon one another quincys more so than other races given that their means of attack are projectile based. Each race builds up on the previous level making it stronger, however now quincy force you to pick and choose which properties you want active at any given time and if you want to actually use some of the stronger properties you have to give up using some of the weaker ones you're currently using. Why is that a thing for quincy and quincy only? Fullbringers if they need more options they activate their secondary along with their main fullbring for more properties. Shingami if they have it will use bankai to gain more control and overall abilities and attacks while keeping the old ones. Bounts will summon out another doll with an entirely different set of powers and so on. So why is it that it's seen balanced to reduce the options that a quincy has now with the new set up? Are there going to be changes seen to fullbringers saying that they can't use all four properties at once? Will shingami be forced to pick between only using shikai and bankai techs? Going back to the properties say someone has two form properties for their arrows and given that arrows last until destroyed or dispelled by the quincy. What happens when one form is deactivated from an arrow that has already been fired and another form is chosen ? Do all arrows then swap over to that form? Does the arrow fired out lose the form they have and gain nothing? The same could be asked about powers for the quincy arrows if an arrow that has a power is fired out and stays out does swapping to another power after it's fired remove the ability of the arrow? Or replace it? If either of those are true it sort of limits a person's ability to out play and out maneuver someone with trick arrows.

Heart and Soul properties, honestly they don't fit the theme of a quincy. Heart allowing you to take a property and apply it to yourself seems alright, but it doesn't scream quincy who are all about improving your arrows not yourself. The same can go for Soul properties, while having an aura ability is nice, it doesn't exactly feel like a natural progression from the use of arrows. I do know you don't have to select them, however as options they seem rather strange and unusual natural progression for a quincy power set.

The class zero benefits that one can chose honestly these are both lack luster and really shouldn't even be a thing. Both are things that quincy were able to do before hand and now seem like a slap in the face when it comes time to do a boost for class zero. Allowing someone to use a fourth property at the cost of no reiatsu regain per post shouldn't be a thing, because why would you limit someone being able to use their properties to begin with and being able to use one property and have full regain just seems rather lack luster when most people will want to use at least two if not three of their properties in a fight. Yes it allows for better reaitsu regain, but wasn't that regain a big abuse that the mods wanted to cut down on?

Personally as one of the older quincy players I can say I hate this revamp because instead of promising something that makes the powers more fun to play with or new options, it limits choices, gets rid of individuality and creativity as well as creating an unjust bar on a person's powers for no reason that no other race has. There are some good aspects of this, however there are too many bad qualities for this revamp. Personally I feel like this will make people shy away from quincy I myself have no motivation now to continue either of the two quincy I was making after reading this revamp.

What I suggest is bringing back bow levels however at lower levels making it more useful to the lower level quincy. Bow level one being accessed at class six, bow level two accessed at class four and bow level one accessed at class two or one. Give the bow level's a cost to activate and allow them to stay activated for a period of time before needing to be paid again(seven posts seems fair). As well as limiting how much reiatsu they can regain depending on the bow level active. IE 75% for bow level one 50% for bow level two 25% for bow level three. Remove the current benefits for class zero and replace them with heart and soul as an option, not as a property for the arrows, but as something that the quincy can do. This is my opinion and I want to hear the voices of the other quincy players as this change affects them the most. I do hope that the mods will listen and take something from this . I also ask that each person who comments their dislikes or likes about the revamp please give both sides fair balance. There are some good things about this revamp, however they don't outweigh the bad that I personally see.

[Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ]

Ok, as someone who has been playing as a Quincy since I joined the site and as a mod who worked on some of these changes, let me address some of the issues you’ve raised.

- So, your first issue is cutback. Firstly, cutback is far less of an issue for Quincy than it is for other races given their immediate access to projectiles. As for whether these properties are considered ‘Releases’, it’s my understanding that once a property is activated it is considered ‘using a release’, in the same way as Mod Souls and Rogues use their Release.
- Your second issue is the lack of control over bow shape - which is due to you misunderstanding the Form Property - Form Properties allow you to change the shape of your bow and/or your arrows. By this new system you can in fact have multiple Form properties, meaning you have MORE flexibility over bow/arrow combinations.
- The limit one the number of active properties is there simply because all of the property effects stack on the SAME projectile. If you could have every property active, you would end up with arrows with 6 properties, instead you can switch between them for a cost.
- ‘Heart and Soul Properties don’t fit the theme of Quincy’ - this just shows a lack of knowledge about modern Quincy lore. Modern Quincy, as shown in the final arc, have access to properties that are EXACTLY what is described in Heart/Soul - such as As Nodt’s Fear abilities, or Gerard’s Miracle ability. These abilities were never locked to arrows, and these two properties reflect that. Secondly, you don’t have to have those properties if you don’t feel they fit your character - you can choose to have more power properties instead.
- Your last argument makes me think you don’t write understand how these work. You realise you can have 3 properties active at a time? And can switch between them just paying the new Reiatsu cost to activate the ability?

I hope this answers your questions. Yes, I realise it’s a big change, but I’m personally very excited for the new flexibility and variety this new structure gives us.

[Wycliff]

Nov 24, 2016 14:37:22 GMT -5 Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ said:

- So, your first issue is cutback. Firstly, cutback is far less of an issue for Quincy than it is for other races given their immediate access to projectiles. As for whether these properties are considered ‘Releases’, it’s my understanding that once a property is activated it is considered ‘using a release’, in the same way as Mod Souls and Rogues use their Release.

This was as I said before something that seemed to be a minor oversight and not really a big issue that needed mod clarification as mod souls and Rogues have release and thematically in combat their release shows.

Nov 24, 2016 14:37:22 GMT -5 Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ said:

- Your second issue is the lack of control over bow shape - which is due to you misunderstanding the Form Property - Form Properties allow you to change the shape of your bow and/or your arrows. By this new system you can in fact have multiple Form properties, meaning you have MORE flexibility over bow/arrow combinations.

I spoke of loss of individuality and freedom with this rework, quincy now have to give up a form property to change their bow. Something that no other race has to do. Tell me why quincy lost the ability to change the shape of their bow freely? Also with this new system we can only have one form active at any given time. Which you didn't answer my big question about the forms, what happens to an arrow that is already fired out and someone swaps forms? Does the arrow lose it's form? does it keep it? what happens.

Nov 24, 2016 14:37:22 GMT -5 Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ said:

- The limit one the number of active properties is there simply because all of the property effects stack on the SAME projectile. If you could have every property active, you would end up with arrows with 6 properties, instead you can switch between them for a cost.

First off that's actually not true, because lets set down something right here, form, mass and firing for the most part aren't effects that can hinder someone they change the arrow themselves. Form is the shape of the arrow and while it could be a damaging effect alot of the time it isn't. Mass and firing have always been about how fast arrows are fired and how many. Also if we are going to talk about this, arrows are projectiles. How often do they actually land? not that often projectiles are some of the easiest things to dodge on the site if we are being frank about this.

Nov 24, 2016 14:37:22 GMT -5 Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ said:

- ‘Heart and Soul Properties don’t fit the theme of Quincy’ - this just shows a lack of knowledge about modern Quincy lore. Modern Quincy, as shown in the final arc, have access to properties that are EXACTLY what is described in Heart/Soul - such as As Nodt’s Fear abilities, or Gerard’s Miracle ability. These abilities were never locked to arrows, and these two properties reflect that. Secondly, you don’t have to have those properties if you don’t feel they fit your character - you can choose to have more power properties instead.

Do I even need to go into how this doesn't make sense? No one on the site thought that what the quincy were doing in the last arc was actually related to arrows. We had a spartan quincy who grew bigger each time he got attacked and beaten down. We had a quincy that could become stronger because someone cheered for them. Honestly 99% of the powers we saw in the last arc seemed more like fullbring abilities than quincy. I know full well all about quincy lore John, I also know that the last arc had the least inconsistencies in the manga to date. IE a quincy absorbing an arrancar and making it part of his own power when that should kill him. Or how about total asspulls like Loyd Lloyd being able to copy a person's release perfectly, how is that really quincy like?

Nov 24, 2016 14:37:22 GMT -5 Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ said:

Your last argument makes me think you don’t write understand how these work. You realise you can have 3 properties active at a time? And can switch between them just paying the new Reiatsu cost to activate the ability?

I hope this answers your questions. Yes, I realise it’s a big change, but I’m personally very excited for the new flexibility and variety this
new structure gives us.

Having access to three properties at any given time without clear knowledge if you switch over from one property to another does it affect arrows already fired off doesn't actually offer more flexibility. Actually limiting how much you can do at any given time doesn't offer more flexibility or variety, because nothing that this update offers power wise is something that quincies couldn't do before hand. Instead it shackles them to using only half of their power at any given time.

[Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ]

Ok, in order again:

- Cutback is ok, then? Because the properties are essentially attributes of a release.
- Ok, so you say Quincy have to ‘give up’ a Form property, as if it were somehow wasted on the bow. Admittedly, Form is one of the more important properties of the Bow Release, given that it might be the base from which the other powers branch, but I still don’t think it limits the abilities of a Quincy. If anything it legitimises the changes in form to a Quincy bow. It allows an ‘ability’ to be gained, rather than just a cinematic change in shape like the old system.
- Well, my argument still stands. Having the ability to give an arrow 6 properties gives a Quincy way too much power. It would a property from its unique firing method, a property from its form, a property from its power and then all of that would be multiplied by its Mass property. Instead, Quincy have to balance these attributes and use different combinations to their advantage. It makes their strategies slightly more involving, but not necessarily weaker.
- I feel your point about ignoring the canon manga events simply because hey don’t fit your ideas of what a canon idea of a Quincy should be is unfair. There are people (me included) who enjoyed certain elements of the plot of the final arc, and would like to see our on-site Quincy evolve to incorporate their new abilities.
- I believe I answered your final statement in an earlier point. Also, I'm saying that arrows keep the properties of the active properties when they were fired, regardless of whether the properties are changed afterwards or not.

[Wycliff]

Nov 24, 2016 15:44:16 GMT -5 Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ said:

- Ok, so you say Quincy have to ‘give up’ a Form property, as if it were somehow wasted on the bow. Admittedly, Form is one of the more important properties of the Bow Release, given that it might be the base from which the other powers branch, but I still don’t think it limits the abilities of a Quincy. If anything it legitimises the changes in form to a Quincy bow. It allows an ‘ability’ to be gained, rather than just a cinematic change in shape like the old system.

But for most people it wasn't a cinematic change if they were smart about it.Kyo's old quincy use to get swords for a bow, that's clearly more than just a cinematic change. Vannan's bow became invisible, and untraceable when in bow level two. That is clearly more than a simple cinematic change, it was a tool of deception that he could use to lower someone's guard. Still I don't see how the mods have justified removing individuality from a character by removing the way someone can shape their bow. Also it never needed to be legitimized in the first place, we saw quincy bows evolve in the past in the manga just by a quincy becoming stronger or weaker or even adjusting to a faith. You claim it gives an ability to be gained, but it's not really, most people when making their quincy already take into account how their bow will be shaped and how it will respond with the form of the arrow they will shoot out. This change weakens both sides as it forces the quicny who wants a different shaped bow to now conform to this system that limits options, like you said a gun would shoot out bullets, but in this new system could we have a sword that shoots out other swords? could we have a cellphone that fires off lazes? No because in the old one we could.

Nov 24, 2016 15:44:16 GMT -5 Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ said:

- Well, my argument still stands. Having the ability to give an arrow 6 properties gives a Quincy way too much power. It would a property from its unique firing method, a property from its form, a property from its power and then all of that would be multiplied by its Mass property. Instead, Quincy have to balance these attributes and use different combinations to their advantage. It makes their strategies slightly more involving, but not necessarily weaker.

Yes because no other race has that option either. Not Akki who can have five levels of release and each of them build upon one another. Not bounts who have three dolls all with their own techniques that can build on one another and offer a wide tech pool of 12 release techs along with whatever the bount it's self can do. Shingami can use anything they had in shikai in bankai. Mod souls and rogues are meant to build up on the one power they have making it stronger and stronger. Arrancar who have an unlimited amount of reiatsu when in release as long as it doesn't count release techs. Or heck how about we bring up Soul Release in which kento used up an ungodly amount of reiasu that no one has come close to ever in a single post to escape. You say that this is way too much power, but it really isn't, there are plenty of other races that can do things just as well if not better than this. Also there was never a rule to say that quincies had to use all six at a time, being able to access them all at once was a nice thing though that made fighting them hard, but not impossible.

Nov 24, 2016 15:44:16 GMT -5 Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ said:

- I feel your point about ignoring the canon manga events simply because hey don’t fit your ideas of what a canon idea of a Quincy should be is unfair. There are people (me included) who enjoyed certain elements of the plot of the final arc, and would like to see our on-site Quincy evolve to incorporate their new abilities.

First off, if we are going to include things from the last arc it wouldn't be fair to cherry pick it, let's bring in the second level of vollstanding, let's bring in the over abused and ass pulls from the last few fights we saw. Because that's what the quincies can do, like you said let's make people be able to replicate Valkyrie's Miracle or heck let's stop having quincy use arrows, because they rarely used arrows in the last arc or did you forget that? Most of the combat in the last arc was physical fighters or the shingami having to deal with weird powers that didn't involve arrows in the least bit, but no it's still quincy related, because kubo said so and we all know Kubo is infallible. So when will we see the removal of the hollow poisoning and being able to absorb arrancars in vollstanding?

Nov 24, 2016 15:44:16 GMT -5 Hadrian J. Ryan Ⅻ said:

- I believe I answered your final statement in an earlier point.

Actually you didn't you danced around it without giving it an actual answer. So I will ask it very clearly along with another question How does limiting a person's options on what they can do offer more freedom and flexibility.


Secondly When you fire off an arrow with one form property or a power property, then switch off to another form property or drop the power property what happens to the arrow that has already been fired off?

[Zeich Yajuu]

*cracks knuckles* Okay, my turn to approach this situation and answer your concerns, given that while John was the one who proposed a fair amount of these changes, I was the generally the one who put it together and finalized it into a solid system, with agreement from the rest of the mod team.

Cutback:
You are not losing your Release. As stated, you still get your Bow Release at Class 6. From Section 2: Race and Release Information:

Class 6 - 700 CTP - Quincy are also more difficult to level up. Quincy at this point are able to notch up to five arrows at once, and guide these arrows too. However, they act as ordinary arrows unless they hit a hollow in the mask center. Vandenreich are a bit different. They can't guide their arrows at this point. Instead, their arrows can explode for an additional Reiatsu cost equivalent to cost of firing the arrow. Most importantly though, Quincy unlock their Bow Release at this point. They also unlock the Form property, the first of the six to come, and automatically gain it as their Class 6 property. The Class 6 property costs 100 Reiatsu to activate. No new SP gained at this level.

Bolded for emphasis. You are not losing your Release, you were never losing your Release. You are getting it in a single package, instead of a "Bow Release Level 1/2/3." Cutback was never a thing for Quincy anyway, and even if it was, nothing has changed on that front. Cutback only occurs with melee hits. From Section 7: PVP and Battle, under the Spiritual Pressure section:

Remember, the Cut Back Effect works for all melee attacks. Axes, Zanpakuto, punches, kicks, etc.

So if you were swinging around a regular sword, or trying to punch someone, sure, you were going to get hit by cutback. That hasn’t changed. Before, you were using your bow, and as a result even if it wasn’t a Release you weren’t going to be cutback, because of range. And besides, having a Release active doesn’t negate cutback; only when you hit someone with your Release do you negate it. Actual hits will still trigger it. Quoting the same section from above:

Release negates the cutback effect if you hit someone with any part of your release.

Bow Form
And here is one of the points you couldn’t be more wrong. By getting rid of levels we prevented you from changing Form? Not at all. We in fact opened it up. Before, Bow Release dictated exactly what kind of bow you could have most times. The first had to be a standard bow, the second was a customized ranged weapon, and it wasn’t until the third that you had complete freedom. Now, you can use a Form property to alter your “Bow” into another weapon of your choice. See Hadrian, who now has bladed pistols, using his arrows as the blades for makeshift swords. The Form property does determine the shape of the weapon, but that shape in itself can be a weapon.

You could make a bow whose Form property is to be made of fire. Guess what? Hit someone with your bow, you burn them. It’s a form, but it’s still weaponized. Make a bow whose form is heat; though it is intangible and won’t block attacks because of its lack of physicality, it could generate enough heat to exhaust and wear out those who get into close combat with you. Make a bow whose form is of re-formable glass with a small cost for reformation; when it shatters on a hit, those shards cut into an attacker and weaken them, and then you pay a small cost and restore your bow with no damage to it. The only thing limiting Form to being nothing but an appearance is the creativity of the person writing it.

And then you mention not affecting the bow and arrow at the same time. Who says that you cannot? That bow made of fire? It could set your arrows ablaze, not as a property of the arrow, but simply because you’re setting something on fire. You now have burning projectiles. That bow of heat? Superheat an arrow so that when it’s fired, it has more piercing power because the heat on it enables it to melt through things it hits. Don’t have one for the bow of glass, admittedly. But you can see my point: Form is purely limited only by the imagination and creativity of the wielder, not the property.


Limiting of Properties
We limited the number of properties active at one time because of the sharp reduction in overall cost. Before, you were paying 100/300/500 Reiatsu per post. Now, you’re paying 100~500 Reiatsu ONCE per property, and that property can apply as long as you want it to without any additional cost. So let’s just say you use a Class 2 property. This means that you pay one cost of 400 Reiatsu, and as long as you pay 60 per shot (Class 2 arrows required to use a Class 2 property), then you can use that property and any lower-leveled ones that are active consistently during that indefinite period. Let us compare that to other races. Shinigami have a Class 4 Release, costs 150 Reiatsu. However, at that point, all techniques within it have a set cost, and are limited to Class 4. To class it up, you have to not only have to pay an additional 150 Reiatsu (so 350 compared to a Class 3 property of 250), and we’re down a post of duration (9 posts compared to indefinite posts). This is the absolute limit; to use a stronger ability we’re forced into Bankai, which not all Shinigami have. In fact, the number is limited, unlike Quincy, who can freely learn all of their properties with no restrictions. So to compare, Shinigami are limited to Class 3 Releases unless they’re one of a select group of individuals, while Quincy can go up to Class 1 Releases.

Additionally, just because you only use a number of properties doesn’t mean they can’t work together or that they can’t be potent. Let’s look at Mass in particular, a property that I think people are severely undervaluing in this change. Mass in no longer just the number of arrows that can be fired; now, it can encompass far more. The scope of your abilities; for example, the Mass property could increase the scope of your range, allowing you to fire arrows at distant targets or lock onto ones beyond your sight. It could expand the effect of all other properties, thus enabling your properties to “level up,” if used in conjunction with it, in exchange for giving up a property slot. It could simply multiply your arrows, if you truly insist on doing so. But the number of properties doesn’t reduce the original potency at all; by being able to pick and choose those that you are using and combining them in tactical ways, you have a much broader range of abilities than you imagine. Creativity is key.

As for the Form of arrows, they would possess the Form that they were fired as. To use arrows of a new Form, you’d have to fire new arrows. If you turn off a Form, the arrow will still retain its property, because the arrow has already been released.


Heart and Soul
You say that these do not fit the Quincy race, but after going through the Quincy section on the Bleach wiki and checking through abilities some people have made (hint hint, your sword techniques to focus on a melee Quincy), I feel that this is quite the opposite. Before, people were limiting Quincy strictly to bows. For all we know, that’s just a standard power that, while it evolves, isn’t the limits of what they can do. The wiki states that bows are the standard way in which Quincy fight, yet we’ve seen them use swords, we’ve seen them take power into themselves, we’ve seen them take power from others. Look at Bankai theft. That’s stealing power from another, and that has nothing to do with bows. Though we may not all like how the Vandenreich arc went down, the fact is that it did, and we’ve taken several things from it. The Beast-Clansman came about as result of it, and they’re a modestly popular race. We have the Vandenreich, which you are a member of, so if you want to discount the things from that arc, I guess we should eliminate the Vandenreich too.

Heart and Soul are simply expansions of the Quincy ability to absorb and project Reishi. They do so normally in the form of a bow, but now they are doing it in different ways. Heart absorbs Reishi normally but, instead of projecting it outwards in arrows, projects it through their body in a form of enhancement. Soul is similar, except that it projects it into an aura of Reiatsu around the user. Therefore, it applies to the natural abilities of Quincy. Quincy are not bow-users, that is simply the most common view of their powers. Their power is to gather and manipulate the latent Reishi in the air, which is usually done by forming it into a weapon. There’s nothing saying that’s the limit, however.


Class 0 Changes
I fail to see how this is a “lackluster” bonus, given that it’s an addition to what you already had. In fact, it’s even better than the initial bonus. Vandenreich weren’t getting their last Bow Release until now. Now you’re getting it much earlier in the form of new properties, so that’s an additional bonus that’s come up from it. Additionally, I’ve proven already that properties are highly flexible and adaptable, and though they require creativity on the player’s part to use them to their fullest, even with just three you’ve got some amazing potential. Can you imagine what you could do with a fourth, pairing them all together? And if not, you’ve got the ability to regain more Reiatsu than before, reducing the strict cut and enabling you to use more arrows, swap properties more freely, or use other outside techniques you couldn’t have used due to diminishing returns if you chose the improved regeneration. All of these are strict bonuses that give you more flexibility in combat by a long shot. I’m sorry if you think they’re “lackluster,” but let’s compare to Shinigami. At this level, the only bonus that Shinigami get at Class 0 is a reduced cost reduction and a slightly increased Release duration.

[Jo Veil]

I for one love the property changes. It adds a whole level of tactical flexibility to a Quincy that they just didn't have before. With being able to pick and choose properties, you can make a wide variety of options on what you can actually accomplish with your release, and even better, you can make it so that you can have a really diverse powerset as well. Why, just pick up a couple of different forms (One melee, one traditional in my mind), and from there? Well, just depends on your class and what you want. You could focus on a lot of tricky firing methods, have a slew of different powers, etc. And with the ability to pick and choose what Properties you have up at what times, you can almost tailor your release from situation to situation. That in and of itself is -insanely- powerful in my mind, and is a major reason why I welcome these changes with open arms. The Class 0 bonus is also nice, and gives even more versatility or increased regeneration, both of which are fantastic. In short... I honestly don't know what you're complaining about.

[Wycliff]

Nov 24, 2016 17:30:42 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

Bow Form
And here is one of the points you couldn’t be more wrong. By getting rid of levels we prevented you from changing Form? Not at all. We in fact opened it up. Before, Bow Release dictated exactly what kind of bow you could have most times. The first had to be a standard bow, the second was a customized ranged weapon, and it wasn’t until the third that you had complete freedom. Now, you can use a Form property to alter your “Bow” into another weapon of your choice. See Hadrian, who now has bladed pistols, using his arrows as the blades for makeshift swords. The Form property does determine the shape of the weapon, but that shape in itself can be a weapon.

Z I hate to say it but you're wrong here, first off, yes before you had to have a basic bow however that was slandered because quinces are and have always been archers. Let's not forget that fact, quincies have always been shown to be archers, not swordsmen, not a thor rip off, not a brain in a jar who could bend reality, and not a luchador, they are archers. They have always been archers, so it makes sense for them to have a basic bow when first getting their powers, but as far as the second one goes making it a ranged weapon. It didn't have to be, nor was it most of the time. A prime example was the first version of Vannan, his second bow level bow as a cellphone, that's clearly not a ranged weapon well you could toss it at someone, but it wasn't a weapon. Kyo's quincy used a sword, that isn't a ranged weapon. There was freedom there, freedom and uniqueness that is now lost and forcibly replaced with something more conforming.

Nov 24, 2016 17:30:42 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

You could make a bow whose Form property is to be made of fire. Guess what? Hit someone with your bow, you burn them. It’s a form, but it’s still weaponized. Make a bow whose form is heat; though it is intangible and won’t block attacks because of its lack of physicality, it could generate enough heat to exhaust and wear out those who get into close combat with you. Make a bow whose form is of re-formable glass with a small cost for reformation; when it shatters on a hit, those shards cut into an attacker and weaken them, and then you pay a small cost and restore your bow with no damage to it. The only thing limiting Form to being nothing but an appearance is the creativity of the person writing it.

Most quncies didn't just use the basic bow level bow change as a cosmetic thing, In vannan's case it was a prime example and way of misdirection. For Kyo's quincy it was a new weapon for him to attack with and bring a duel to shingami. Having a free bow change was rarely used to justify a new form, most of the time the new bow form served a very unique and important purpose as well as letting people be more free form with their powers, now if you don't want a bow later on you have to somehow fit it into your theme as well as make it make sense.

[quote source="/post/55205/thread" author="Zeich Yajuu " timestamp="1480026642"
And then you mention not affecting the bow and arrow at the same time. Who says that you cannot? That bow made of fire? It could set your arrows ablaze, not as a property of the arrow, but simply because you’re setting something on fire. You now have burning projectiles. That bow of heat? Superheat an arrow so that when it’s fired, it has more piercing power because the heat on it enables it to melt through things it hits. Don’t have one for the bow of glass, admittedly. But you can see my point: Form is purely limited only by the imagination and creativity of the wielder, not the property. [/quote]

Oh who says it can't well the rules do

At Class 6, the first property, “Form,” is unlocked. Form determines the shape of your bow or your arrows.

That is a clear line form section two about race and release. It clearly says form shapes your bow or your arrows, not both at the same time. So I have to ask where do you see it saying it can be free for both? because later on it also says.

If a second Form is chosen, it can be applied to the arrows, or it can be applied to the bow, but two bow Form properties cannot be active at the same time


[quote source="/post/55205/thread" author="Zeich Yajuu " timestamp="1480026642"
Limiting of Properties
We limited the number of properties active at one time because of the sharp reduction in overall cost. Before, you were paying 100/300/500 Reiatsu per post. Now, you’re paying 100~500 Reiatsu ONCE per property, and that property can apply as long as you want it to without any additional cost. So let’s just say you use a Class 2 property. This means that you pay one cost of 400 Reiatsu, and as long as you pay 60 per shot (Class 2 arrows required to use a Class 2 property), then you can use that property and any lower-leveled ones that are active consistently during that indefinite period. Let us compare that to other races. Shinigami have a Class 4 Release, costs 150 Reiatsu. However, at that point, all techniques within it have a set cost, and are limited to Class 4. To class it up, you have to not only have to pay an additional 150 Reiatsu (so 350 compared to a Class 3 property of 250), and we’re down a post of duration (9 posts compared to indefinite posts). This is the absolute limit; to use a stronger ability we’re forced into Bankai, which not all Shinigami have. In fact, the number is limited, unlike Quincy, who can freely learn all of their properties with no restrictions. So to compare, Shinigami are limited to Class 3 Releases unless they’re one of a select group of individuals, while Quincy can go up to Class 1 Releases. [/quote]

Sure and what about bounts who pay a cost of 400 to summon their doll and they can have three of them out at any given time each with their own move pool, and reiatsu pool oh and they last forever until destroyed. While my example is a bit out there the point stands not every race has the same costs and length of release, however no race straight up denies access to part of an already unlocked release while using another part of the current one. Side fullbring doesn't lock you out of using your main fullbring, bankai doesn't lock you out of shikai. Heck even akki's release allow you to use the lower tier release with part of it boosted up. Mind you I do know that akki can't use the release under them after they've released above it. However the fact stands that they are still allowed to use all of the abilities that they have. So why are quincy the only ones locked out of it?


[quote source="/post/55205/thread" author="Zeich Yajuu " timestamp="1480026642"
Additionally, just because you only use a number of properties doesn’t mean they can’t work together or that they can’t be potent. Let’s look at Mass in particular, a property that I think people are severely undervaluing in this change. Mass in no longer just the number of arrows that can be fired; now, it can encompass far more. The scope of your abilities; for example, the Mass property could increase the scope of your range, allowing you to fire arrows at distant targets or lock onto ones beyond your sight. It could expand the effect of all other properties, thus enabling your properties to “level up,” if used in conjunction with it, in exchange for giving up a property slot. It could simply multiply your arrows, if you truly insist on doing so. But the number of properties doesn’t reduce the original potency at all; by being able to pick and choose those that you are using and combining them in tactical ways, you have a much broader range of abilities than you imagine. Creativity is key.


As for the Form of arrows, they would possess the Form that they were fired as. To use arrows of a new Form, you’d have to fire new arrows. If you turn off a Form, the arrow will still retain its property, because the arrow has already been released. [/quote]

First off thank you for stating this this when the time comes I will end up linking this exact quote. Secondly mass really hasn't changed that greatly I'm afraid, at least not with how it will be used nor with how it could have been used before. Mass before was a guideline and many simply used it to make more arrows, however that wasn't the only use it had. This really doesn't seem like that big of a change personally. Again I state the very simple fact, all abilities on the site are made to build off one another, limiting them like this doesn't seem natural. Would you like to be stuck with only being able to use half of your techs at any given time in release? Because that's what this does.


[quote source="/post/55205/thread" author="Zeich Yajuu " timestamp="1480026642"
Heart and Soul
You say that these do not fit the Quincy race, but after going through the Quincy section on the Bleach wiki and checking through abilities some people have made (hint hint, your sword techniques to focus on a melee Quincy), I feel that this is quite the opposite. Before, people were limiting Quincy strictly to bows. For all we know, that’s just a standard power that, while it evolves, isn’t the limits of what they can do. The wiki states that bows are the standard way in which Quincy fight, yet we’ve seen them use swords, we’ve seen them take power into themselves, we’ve seen them take power from others. Look at Bankai theft. That’s stealing power from another, and that has nothing to do with bows. Though we may not all like how the Vandenreich arc went down, the fact is that it did, and we’ve taken several things from it. The Beast-Clansman came about as result of it, and they’re a modestly popular race. We have the Vandenreich, which you are a member of, so if you want to discount the things from that arc, I guess we should eliminate the Vandenreich too.

Heart and Soul are simply expansions of the Quincy ability to absorb and project Reishi. They do so normally in the form of a bow, but now they are doing it in different ways. Heart absorbs Reishi normally but, instead of projecting it outwards in arrows, projects it through their body in a form of enhancement. Soul is similar, except that it projects it into an aura of Reiatsu around the user. Therefore, it applies to the natural abilities of Quincy. Quincy are not bow-users, that is simply the most common view of their powers. Their power is to gather and manipulate the latent Reishi in the air, which is usually done by forming it into a weapon. There’s nothing saying that’s the limit, however.[/quote]

I've said it once before and I'll say it again, quincy have always been archers and I have proof. Tell me if in all of the ways that someone could create an energy blast to attack a hollow with why is it that every quincy has made a bow without fail. In the countless masses and hundreds of quincy why is it that it's always a bow and arrow? Wouldn't it make sense that at some point in time a quincy would have done something else? Wouldn't it be easier just to make it blast of energy like a ki blast from DBZ. Or maybe a sword? or some other weapon? No quincy time and time again have shown to make bows and arrows they are archers. To say that they're not bow users is down right silly and insulting.

I have to ask you Z personally when reading the Vandenreich arc did you really feel like you were reading a fight between a quincy and a shingami? Answer honestly, because I know for a fact half of the time it felt more like a fullbringer or a bount was fighting not a quincy and really the only time in the manga that this happened was in the Vandenreich arc. Each arrancar had a special and unique release that felt like it belonged and could be tied back to a central theme each bount had a doll that made sense given it's users. The fullbringers had alright powers that made sense based on what they were. The Vandenreich..... they had powers so far and disjointed from one another that it didn't make sense for most of them. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how Mask De Masculine was even considered a quincy.

[quote source="/post/55205/thread" author="Zeich Yajuu " timestamp="1480026642"
Class 0 Changes
I fail to see how this is a “lackluster” bonus, given that it’s an addition to what you already had. In fact, it’s even better than the initial bonus. Vandenreich weren’t getting their last Bow Release until now. Now you’re getting it much earlier in the form of new properties, so that’s an additional bonus that’s come up from it. Additionally, I’ve proven already that properties are highly flexible and adaptable, and though they require creativity on the player’s part to use them to their fullest, even with just three you’ve got some amazing potential. Can you imagine what you could do with a fourth, pairing them all together? And if not, you’ve got the ability to regain more Reiatsu than before, reducing the strict cut and enabling you to use more arrows, swap properties more freely, or use other outside techniques you couldn’t have used due to diminishing returns if you chose the improved regeneration. All of these are strict bonuses that give you more flexibility in combat by a long shot. I’m sorry if you think they’re “lackluster,” but let’s compare to Shinigami. At this level, the only bonus that Shinigami get at Class 0 is a reduced cost reduction and a slightly increased Release duration.[/quote]

50 cost Shikai and it lasting for fifteen posts as well as access to class zero kido isn't a small bonus so don't try and play it off as if it is one it's a third of the cost of what shikai cost at the start. Bankai costing only 200 now and lasting for 12 posts when it originally cost a shingami 800 is a big boost Z, so please don't say that it isn't one when it clearly is, however for argument's sake let's go with it isn't let's look at another race's class zero boost, the beast clan.

At class zero they are given the option of going totally feral or regaining some humanity. While regaining some humanity offers only one extra point in Yaseishin they also gain the option to learn other techs that they couldn't. While it isn't said what techs these are I'm assuming that they're some of the shinami techs and other techs that require a higher level of sentience that they were once restricted from. Going feral keeps them from doing that, but allows them to gain three points in Yaseishin. That is a big boost either way, more raw power, or less power more control.

The quincy class zero benefits pail in comparison given that we aren't getting anything that we didn't have access to before. Using four properties at a time seems like a slap in the face given that we should be able to use more than half of our skill set at any given time and the improved regain seems to go back on what you guys were doing before with the reiatsu regain abuse.

[Zeich Yajuu]

Bow Form
I'm actually correct here despite your belief. I very firmly remember how the Quincy bows were created, as I had to rewrite that rules section myself. I even still have it recorded in a backup log, and I can paste it here for you.

Bow Level 1 must look like a bow, no matter what. Standard size and shape must apply. Bow Level 2 may vary in appearance and size from a standard, such as Ishida's web-like bow. And finally Bow Level 3 may be a ranged weapon besides a bow, with its “arrows” changing to match.

Did you note something here? The entire time, the original Form was nothing but a bow until Level 3, when it could change to another ranged weapon. Until then, it still had to be a bow. So your cellphone, or the "sword" were illegal. Thank you for calling to attention that we need to be more attentive, because you clearly did not read your own racial rules.


Form Properties
You're right, most Quincy didn't use them as just a cosmetic change, and that effect remains here. Don't make them just a cosmetic change; I've explained several times how you can alter form to make it have abilities or weaponize it, but you're glossing over that to compare to the old. As for the arrows, you're misreading the rules and my response once again. You're right, the property itself only specifically applies to one or the other. However, that doesn't mean that one cannot affect the other. For example, that flaming bow is setting arrows on fire. It's not making arrows created from fire, it's literally taking a physical projectile and lighting it ablaze. Does putting a log in a fire make that log made of fire? No, it's simply igniting and being used as fuel for the fire. As for making a separate one for arrows: you could create one that applies to the arrows at any time. For example, you could make a Form property that makes arrows that are made of fire, but use them even when the "flame bow" property isn't active. This of course would be a waste, but it serves as a viable example of how you can interpret a Bow Form's effect on an arrow as opposed to a Form that encompasses the arrow.


Limited Properties
Quincy are not Bount. Bount already have their own issues with how powerful they are, and you know that I am one who has spoken out against such things. It may be that the potency of three Dolls of varying types may be called into question in the future, given that you have 4-5 individual characters' worth of SP pools. We may be required to examine them and see that there are abuses going on and require them to have some limitation to summoning multiple. But this is not here or now. And you are not denied any part of your Release, just like Fullbringers and Shinigami are not; they have their extra "properties" in their techniques that they have to spend for, much like you do to activate a property. But guess what? They have to spend each time they use it. You only have to spend to turn it on, and then you pay a far lesser cost for arrows that can use that property freely as long as it's on. Switching properties is much like using a technique; you spend Reiatsu, and you use an effect that's different from previously. Only in your case, you have what's the equivalent of a perpetual, no-maintenance cost technique.

You state a question about being able to use only half of my techniques in Release. You're not understanding, because that's not how your Release works. You're getting perpetual properties. Think of it as using a "technique" to change the aspects of your bow. Comparatively, a Shinigami only has a single overall ability, and that overall ability cannot change (though it does get upgraded via Bankai, but again, that's limited to certain people as opposed to freely available). We use techniques as a separate skill, as opposed to being able to change our constant ability. Both sides are equally flexible; it sounds like you're just upset because you can't all of your abilities work at the same time. News flash: most Releases don't use all of their abilities at the exact same time. Most Shikai aren't activating all of their techniques at the exact same time. They have access to them, but that's much like a Quincy's Bow Release does; they have to pay to activate an aspect of their power, just like you do. Only you get to activate it and keep it on for no additional cost, while most of our abilities require us to pay per-post costs or are very temporary.


Heart and Soul
You say you have proof, and then you quote the one thing that I'm using for evidence as well: the manga's canon. Yes, in the past, Quincy have only used bows. But guess what? Now they don't. We only saw these new powers via the Vandenreich, who are considered to be the pure, true-blooded Quincy. For all we know, the Quincy we saw up until that point were weakened, even those who technically had pure blood like Ishida. Even he grew more powerful, gaining a Schrift from Ywach or however it's spelled. Hell, Ishida had to use the Sanrei Glove to even beat Mayuri, when later on we have powerful Vandenreich Quincy who can steal Bankai and trash many of the Captains. In fact, Bankai Stealing; originally Quincy couldn't do that, but the Vandenreich did, yet I haven't seen you complaining once about that. After all, Quincy were archers, not thieves. They couldn't use Shinigami powers. But I don't see you complaining about this. Pick one side of the fence or the other.

And yes, I did feel that it was a fight between Quincy and Shinigami, because guess what: it's not our universe. It is Kubo's universe. And even if we do not agree, we have been shown that Quincy who are showing their true power go far beyond that of a bow. Many of them paired it as part of their Vollstandig - conveniently, another thing that Quincy didn't have before this arc, yet once again, you haven't complained about that. In fact, as I recall, you're one of the most avid abusers of it. Once more, pick a side of the fence.


Class 0 Changes
Once more, I disagree with you. If you want to argue Class 0 techniques, that's nothing that Quincy cannot get either; last I checked, you guys haven't been working to make any Class 0 techniques. This is fully on you guys for not having them. So Class 0 Kido is an unreasonable argument. As for reducing the cost of Shikai/Bankai and increasing their potency, yes, the cost goes down significantly. If you want to argue Class 3 Bankai's 800 cost, however, you're going to need to try again. The majority of Shinigami that gain Bankai gain it through Captaincy (Class 2-1) or unlock it later on. Very few unlock it at Class 3, so that's sort of a weak argument when the general basis is around 400. That being said, it's a modest boost in terms of duration/cost. I won't deny that.

Beast-Clansmen, once more you don't understand. If they go Shinigami route, all they literally get is access to Shinigami techniques. They become a Shinigami in all but name, and having a weaker Zanpaktou with less techniques. If they go the Feral route, sure, they gain three new boosts, but they have a very weak Release overall. At best they have a single Class 1 technique and maybe some duration, or a few Class 3-4 techniques with low duration. Even with that three boosts, they're very overwhelming, which is why they're being considered right now. The initial system was a good concept, but left them too weak. So Class 0 only serves to help balance them out a bit, much like you gaining more versatility or more cost helps balance the Quincy a bit.

[Wycliff]

Nov 24, 2016 23:33:23 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

Bow Form
I'm actually correct here despite your belief. I very firmly remember how the Quincy bows were created, as I had to rewrite that rules section myself. I even still have it recorded in a backup log, and I can paste it here for you.

Bow Level 1 must look like a bow, no matter what. Standard size and shape must apply. Bow Level 2 may vary in appearance and size from a standard, such as Ishida's web-like bow. And finally Bow Level 3 may be a ranged weapon besides a bow, with its “arrows” changing to match.

Did you note something here? The entire time, the original Form was nothing but a bow until Level 3, when it could change to another ranged weapon. Until then, it still had to be a bow. So your cellphone, or the "sword" were illegal. Thank you for calling to attention that we need to be more attentive, because you clearly did not read your own racial rules.

Yes you are right about that the rules did say that, however this doesn't explain why almost every single quincy out there has an illegal bow, I can't check it because I don't have access to the site before changes however at some point in time there was information out there that told quincy that their bow level two could be vastly different and didn't need to be a ranged weapon and the same for bow level three. Even the class zero app Caesar has this error in it. I made this mistake and I re read rules and release powers at least three times a day when I'm making a character. So somewhere that information is floating out there and it needs to be removed.

Nov 24, 2016 23:33:23 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

Form Properties
You're right, most Quincy didn't use them as just a cosmetic change, and that effect remains here. Don't make them just a cosmetic change; I've explained several times how you can alter form to make it have abilities or weaponize it, but you're glossing over that to compare to the old. As for the arrows, you're misreading the rules and my response once again. You're right, the property itself only specifically applies to one or the other. However, that doesn't mean that one cannot affect the other. For example, that flaming bow is setting arrows on fire. It's not making arrows created from fire, it's literally taking a physical projectile and lighting it ablaze. Does putting a log in a fire make that log made of fire? No, it's simply igniting and being used as fuel for the fire. As for making a separate one for arrows: you could create one that applies to the arrows at any time. For example, you could make a Form property that makes arrows that are made of fire, but use them even when the "flame bow" property isn't active. This of course would be a waste, but it serves as a viable example of how you can interpret a Bow Form's effect on an arrow as opposed to a Form that encompasses the arrow.

You gave examples yes and I am not saying that you didn't however if I can miss read this "At Class 6, the first property, “Form,” is unlocked. Form determines the shape of your bow or your arrows, the user picking this upon taking the property." Then others will as well, the form needs to have more clarification on how the form of your bow can also affect your arrows, because as I read that it seems to imply that the bow having a form won't change your arrows.

Nov 24, 2016 23:33:23 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

Limited Properties
Quincy are not Bount. Bount already have their own issues with how powerful they are, and you know that I am one who has spoken out against such things. It may be that the potency of three Dolls of varying types may be called into question in the future, given that you have 4-5 individual characters' worth of SP pools. We may be required to examine them and see that there are abuses going on and require them to have some limitation to summoning multiple. But this is not here or now. And you are not denied any part of your Release, just like Fullbringers and Shinigami are not; they have their extra "properties" in their techniques that they have to spend for, much like you do to activate a property. But guess what? They have to spend each time they use it. You only have to spend to turn it on, and then you pay a far lesser cost for arrows that can use that property freely as long as it's on. Switching properties is much like using a technique; you spend Reiatsu, and you use an effect that's different from previously. Only in your case, you have what's the equivalent of a perpetual, no-maintenance cost technique.

You state a question about being able to use only half of my techniques in Release. You're not understanding, because that's not how your Release works. You're getting perpetual properties. Think of it as using a "technique" to change the aspects of your bow. Comparatively, a Shinigami only has a single overall ability, and that overall ability cannot change (though it does get upgraded via Bankai, but again, that's limited to certain people as opposed to freely available). We use techniques as a separate skill, as opposed to being able to change our constant ability. Both sides are equally flexible; it sounds like you're just upset because you can't all of your abilities work at the same time. News flash: most Releases don't use all of their abilities at the exact same time. Most Shikai aren't activating all of their techniques at the exact same time. They have access to them, but that's much like a Quincy's Bow Release does; they have to pay to activate an aspect of their power, just like you do. Only you get to activate it and keep it on for no additional cost, while most of our abilities require us to pay per-post costs or are very temporary.

I personally Z didn't know that about how you feel about bounts Z.


Quincies do have their own cost per post that can well exceed some that others have. People tend to forget about arrows and how quickly they can add up. Most quincy will not simply use one arrow when attacking because that has a low chance of actually landing a hit many quincy will use multiple arrows to attack with because arrows are our means of attack. So lets say we have someone using a heart property they have to use class two arrows. Which is 60 reiatsu an arrow and if they want to try and hit something, they will use about three to five arrows at a time. That is a cost of 180 reiatsu to 300. Just for one attack that has a very high chance of missing because of how easy it seems to be to dodge projectiles on this site. This is just for that round of arrows and if they completely go off target that's it for them for the most part so they are temporary and a per post cost as well.

Nov 24, 2016 23:33:23 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

Heart and Soul
You say you have proof, and then you quote the one thing that I'm using for evidence as well: the manga's canon. Yes, in the past, Quincy have only used bows. But guess what? Now they don't. We only saw these new powers via the Vandenreich, who are considered to be the pure, true-blooded Quincy. For all we know, the Quincy we saw up until that point were weakened, even those who technically had pure blood like Ishida. Even he grew more powerful, gaining a Schrift from Ywach or however it's spelled. Hell, Ishida had to use the Sanrei Glove to even beat Mayuri, when later on we have powerful Vandenreich Quincy who can steal Bankai and trash many of the Captains. In fact, Bankai Stealing; originally Quincy couldn't do that, but the Vandenreich did, yet I haven't seen you complaining once about that. After all, Quincy were archers, not thieves. They couldn't use Shinigami powers. But I don't see you complaining about this. Pick one side of the fence or the other.

And yes, I did feel that it was a fight between Quincy and Shinigami, because guess what: it's not our universe. It is Kubo's universe. And even if we do not agree, we have been shown that Quincy who are showing their true power go far beyond that of a bow. Many of them paired it as part of their Vollstandig - conveniently, another thing that Quincy didn't have before this arc, yet once again, you haven't complained about that. In fact, as I recall, you're one of the most avid abusers of it. Once more, pick a side of the fence.

First off I wouldn't use the Mayuri battle and the later on fights with Vandenreich as a valid comparison. Bleach is and was a shonen manga, to keep readers invested many times they will have people who needed special circumstances be down right thrashed by the new foe. It's to keep readers invested and wondering how strong these new people are. Almost every shonen manga does it, especially seven deadly sins. The time inbetween those two fights was in terms of the manga years apart.Secondly by the time I had come back and made Vannan those things had already become lore in the site and well established.

Nov 24, 2016 23:33:23 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

Class 0 Changes
Once more, I disagree with you. If you want to argue Class 0 techniques, that's nothing that Quincy cannot get either; last I checked, you guys haven't been working to make any Class 0 techniques. This is fully on you guys for not having them. So Class 0 Kido is an unreasonable argument. As for reducing the cost of Shikai/Bankai and increasing their potency, yes, the cost goes down significantly. If you want to argue Class 3 Bankai's 800 cost, however, you're going to need to try again. The majority of Shinigami that gain Bankai gain it through Captaincy (Class 2-1) or unlock it later on. Very few unlock it at Class 3, so that's sort of a weak argument when the general basis is around 400. That being said, it's a modest boost in terms of duration/cost. I won't deny that.

Beast-Clansmen, once more you don't understand. If they go Shinigami route, all they literally get is access to Shinigami techniques. They become a Shinigami in all but name, and having a weaker Zanpaktou with less techniques. If they go the Feral route, sure, they gain three new boosts, but they have a very weak Release overall. At best they have a single Class 1 technique and maybe some duration, or a few Class 3-4 techniques with low duration. Even with that three boosts, they're very overwhelming, which is why they're being considered right now. The initial system was a good concept, but left them too weak. So Class 0 only serves to help balance them out a bit, much like you gaining more versatility or more cost helps balance the Quincy a bit.

Yes most shingami won't get bankai at class three because the captaincy is always filled up or people can't complete the two quests or adventures before class three. However the starting cost is still the same and it's still reduced to only a third of what it once was.

And as for Quincy making class zero techs sadly there is only a new wave of quincy popping up now so there hasn't been many hands at work on class zero techs for quincy. Then again the same could be said for most races with class zero techs.

Ok so here and now I want to ask this, given that you bring it up here aren't there three ways for a beast clan member to end up as? Either a shingami at class two with the help of someone. A feral BC getting three boosts to their Yaseishin or a more intelligent bc only getting one final boost to their Yaseishin. Sorry if this is a bit off topic, however the class zero boosts don't mention shingami BC, only class two does so does being a smarter bc and not taking the feral boost make you lock into a shingami bc?

[Kento Waffles]

My turn! For the record, the idea of switching around properties rather than having a static set property per class was my contribution. In other words, your major versatility bolster is my idea, so I'm relatively offended to be told you've lost power. If anything, I think this bow release is MORE powerful yet balanced than ever. Also cooler, with more options. So, let's dive in based on Faust's original points, and if I happen to be redundant or hit some overlap so be it. I might be slightly rude here and there, just warning.

Now with the positives said and done I'm going to go into what I feel was some of the worst decisions made in this rework starting off with the total removal of bow level and the implications it has for quincy. You removed the quincy's release, so my question is with no more reelase and now having a property apply to arrows does that mean that quincy can't stop cutback? Because that's certainly how that looks, mind you this seems to be a minor over site that I'm sure isn't true and just needs to be said that using properties will allow you to get past cutback if needed, but it still needs to be cleared up, because as it stands right now quincy powers seem to be somewhat like a hollow's tech pool and we know that those techs don't counter cutback, however this is in fact the tiniest issue I've seen with the rework and in fact I only bring it up to clear up a minor oversight that seems to be looked over. With the removal of bow level you also got rid of a quincy being freely able to change their bow form. Why? Why was that seen as something necessary to do? We have seen before clearly in the manga that quincy bows are able to take different shapes and forms based on their user and even on the site we have had powers based on the shape the bow has taken. It was a reflection of the user and the way they fought, so why now remove the free ability to shape a user's bow and turn it into a form property that then can't be used with another one? Most quincy had unique and interesting bows based on who they were depending on each level and now you've stripped away that uniqueness and forced them to pick if they actually want that to affect their arrow or their bow, but not both at the same time. I don't see how that is an improvement in the least bit. Please tell me the rationality behind this? It would be the same as removing the weapon forms of a fullbring item and allowing the user to keep it's properties or when a shingami uses shikai their sword doesn't change shape it just gets more powers.

How many years have you been on the site without understanding cutback??? You realize cutback has only ever applied to physical attacks? With physical powers? We have always been able to bypass it with projectiles, with weapons coated in reiatsu, with reiatsu based attacks, etc. So, let me ask you something. WHAT IS a Quincy arrow? It's an arrow. Made out of reiatsu. Fired as a projectile. Cutback should not have been an issue you even thought of.

Now let's get to form. I don't know if you realize this, but...

For Level 2, the properties are “Power,” which determines a type of power inherent in the arrows, as well as “Form,” which gives them a unique form to the arrows.

That's the original text for the "Form" property, unlocked at Bow Release Level 2. Notice something. Previously, you only ever got arrow changes. You NEVER received bow changes! Instead, you got this...

Bow Level 1 must look like a bow, no matter what. Standard size and shape must apply. Bow Level 2 may vary in appearance and size from a standard, such as Ishida's web-like bow. And finally Bow Level 3 may be a ranged weapon besides a bow, with its “arrows” changing to match.

You were forced to take on a certain appearance. Unlike the Zanpakuto, which in its released state can more or less become any sort of external weaponized summoning (for Soul Reapers) or any kind of bodily change (for Arrancar), you were stuck with nothing but a slight variation of what was basically the equivalent of any other race's weakest, or sealed form. Nowadays, you can pick and choose form at your earliest stage, creating a power that uses either different form arrows and a standard bow or different form bow and standard arrows. You get choice, whereas before you lacked choice. This is an increase in versatility.

At the lowest class of using your bow, you only get one of these, sure... No shit, you're a novice Quincy. As early as the next class up, however, you get "Firing." Not only could you adapt this to some sort of shifted form for your arrows, but it already adds additional versatility. What if your firing property was "Laser" or "Stream"? BAM! That's a changed form to your arrows. An elongated stream of reiatsu would be your arrow. It's as early as class 5, when you're still some wannabe punk bitch with no business trying to be actually powerful.

But it gets better. At class 4, you get "Power" and you don't even have to use it! At this point you get choice. Versatility. Now, not only is class 4 extremely easy to get, but by this point you've now got the power to pick from many properties. Want multiple Form properties for the bow, or one per bow one per arrow? You could do that, and if you include Firing and design it well could have up to three by now. Or you can have power. Or you can have two Firing properties. By this point, you have already achieved a very high degree of versatility.

Next complaint, we'll take in two distinct parts.

Talking about powers why do quincy now have a limit on how many properties they can use at any given time? How is limiting a person to choose half of their power set at any given time fair or balanced? Especially given that all powers on this site are meant to build up upon one another quincys more so than other races given that their means of attack are projectile based. Each race builds up on the previous level making it stronger, however now quincy force you to pick and choose which properties you want active at any given time and if you want to actually use some of the stronger properties you have to give up using some of the weaker ones you're currently using.

You realize you can literally switch between properties in mid post just by paying reiatsu, right? Like, literally nothing stops you from doing that multiple times at once as long as you can pay reiatsu. And, given you no longer have Bow Release's constant per-post drain, you save a lot of reiatsu anyway! You can even stop all properties during less active posts and regen some reiatsu. Then activate them again next post or in a couple of posts. It's a different pacing, but still. You're not stuck.

What happens when one form is deactivated from an arrow that has already been fired and another form is chosen ? Do all arrows then swap over to that form? Does the arrow fired out lose the form they have and gain nothing? The same could be asked about powers for the quincy arrows if an arrow that has a power is fired out and stays out does swapping to another power after it's fired remove the ability of the arrow? Or replace it? If either of those are true it sort of limits a person's ability to out play and out maneuver someone with trick arrows.

Oh come on. Now you're just nitpicking for the sake of complaining. It should be obvious. And if it isn't, it can be written. This could have been a "suggestion" rather than a complaint. You're just being facetious. Property is maintained in arrow that's already fired. Power does not switch or cut off. So if your properties are Fire and Water, and you fire out a Fire arrow, turn off the Fire property and switch to the Water property, that original arrow is still made of fire.

Heart and Soul properties, honestly they don't fit the theme of a quincy. Heart allowing you to take a property and apply it to yourself seems alright, but it doesn't scream quincy who are all about improving your arrows not yourself. The same can go for Soul properties, while having an aura ability is nice, it doesn't exactly feel like a natural progression from the use of arrows. I do know you don't have to select them, however as options they seem rather strange and unusual natural progression for a quincy power set.

Given Z and I were the forerunners on what these two properties in particular would end up looking like, I'm a bit offended here. But, that in mind, let's think about this. This also addresses your "ALL QUINCY ARE ARCHERS" point.

Who are you to say what Quincy TRULY are? How many Quincy did we see in the story up until the Thousand Year Blood War arc? Two. We saw two. We saw Uryu Ishida and his dad. And, in flashbacks, we saw his frail ass grandpa.

So, let's consider. His dad never taught him, only helped him regain his powers. His dad only fought once or twice in the series, and both times he held back (one was a Hollow not worth his time, other was giving Uryu powers back). So he only really used baseline power. Also, his grandfather gave him lessons, but died when Uryu was young. Result? Never fully developed his powers. For a majority of the story, it's safe to assume that what we're seeing is an amateur Quincy trying to advance by teaching himself and having no real guidance. By the end of the Arrancar Arc, he's still barely class 3. That's why he struggled against a Privaron Espada so much, that's why he didn't get any major battles against any major adversaries like the Espada, and that's why, way earlier in the series, his only hope against a Captain who was probably only class 2 at the time was to sacrifice his powers with an artificial enhancement object.

Now, how many fully developed Quincy did we see during the Thousand Year Blood War arc? We saw 24 of them! 25 if you count Uryu himself. And guess what all of them had? The capacity for "Heart" or "Soul" properties. Powers that could not be covered merely by the likes of our existing Bow Release model. AND, what do you know? Even Uryu had a "Soul" power! So, sure. Maybe Quincy are all archers, but they're not JUST archers. They have other additional powers.

And do you know who said that?

Tite fucking Kubo. *guitar strum* Yeeeaaahhhh!!!!!

No seriously, though. It's canon. I don't think you know better than Tite Kubo as to what Quincy are or should be.

The class zero benefits that one can chose honestly these are both lack luster and really shouldn't even be a thing. Both are things that quincy were able to do before hand and now seem like a slap in the face when it comes time to do a boost for class zero. Allowing someone to use a fourth property at the cost of no reiatsu regain per post shouldn't be a thing, because why would you limit someone being able to use their properties to begin with and being able to use one property and have full regain just seems rather lack luster when most people will want to use at least two if not three of their properties in a fight. Yes it allows for better reaitsu regain, but wasn't that regain a big abuse that the mods wanted to cut down on?

Refer back to previous point. You can switch back and forth between properties. So what does this mean? Now you can do it AND still regain reiatsu! That's fantastic news for you. I don't know if you realize this, but reiatsu regen is kind of a big deal. Like. Almost no other race can do that, least of all with an inherent racial ability that takes no tech slots.

Personally as one of the older quincy players I can say I hate this revamp because instead of promising something that makes the powers more fun to play with or new options, it limits choices, gets rid of individuality and creativity as well as creating an unjust bar on a person's powers for no reason that no other race has. There are some good aspects of this, however there are too many bad qualities for this revamp. Personally I feel like this will make people shy away from quincy I myself have no motivation now to continue either of the two quincy I was making after reading this revamp.

Personally as the site's longest running mod and one of the leads for designing powers, power revamps, and helping members with powers, I can say I adore this revamp because it actually creates a huge amount of individuality, versatility, and creativity. Whereas before you were stuck until class 1 (class 0 if you were Vandenreich) with some bow or other projectile type, NOW literally all Quincy can diverge into other weapon types if desired. This is a whole new addition to their powers given they still use arrows, giving them potential for best of both worlds. They can branch out. Furthermore, they can now match their powerful canon counterparts fully. There is no unjust bar, for as I said, you can use all of your properties in a single post if you wanted. But no Quincy did that even before this update. As for individuality, this is more powerful than ever due to how customizable the bow is. No longer are you bound by exact properties. You can have the kind of bow you want. You can have an ever shifting bow of many forms. You can have a single form with many powers. You can have a mix of both. You can have a bow with many kinds of powers and talents. Instead of static this power with this class, you get the power of CHOICE. That is the very definition, epitome even, of individuality. For me, a member who never saw a use in making Quincy in over six years of forum activity, I now find this race more appealing and exciting than ever.

And, for the record, don't use your motivation as an argumentation point if you've not even tried the update, even in theory. "I HATE THIS UPDATE." That was what you started with. You'd have gotten a better start if you'd said, "I can tell you worked hard on this update. As a Quincy player, I am uncertain as to how this may affect my characters. If I could perhaps offer an alternative system solution, and we could talk about it in this thread, that would be great."

But you went, "I HATE THIS UPDATE PARAGRAPHS PARAGRAPHS PARAGRAPHS PARAGRAPHS" and ended with "oh and here's my solution. I hope mods listen because mine is better."

We as a staff worked for many weeks on this update. For the benefit of everyone. For balance. For YOUR fun. And you have the audacity to within hours give us a bunch of huge paragraphs about why you hate almost every aspect of the update? We worked to give you an opportunity for a more balanced, even more powerful bow form with plenty of opportunity for refinement, individuality, and versatility. For precision.

What I suggest is bringing back bow levels however at lower levels making it more useful to the lower level quincy. Bow level one being accessed at class six, bow level two accessed at class four and bow level one accessed at class two or one. Give the bow level's a cost to activate and allow them to stay activated for a period of time before needing to be paid again(seven posts seems fair). As well as limiting how much reiatsu they can regain depending on the bow level active. IE 75% for bow level one 50% for bow level two 25% for bow level three. Remove the current benefits for class zero and replace them with heart and soul as an option, not as a property for the arrows, but as something that the quincy can do. This is my opinion and I want to hear the voices of the other quincy players as this change affects them the most. I do hope that the mods will listen and take something from this . I also ask that each person who comments their dislikes or likes about the revamp please give both sides fair balance. There are some good things about this revamp, however they don't outweigh the bad that I personally see.

Perhaps, had you created a thread that was "here are a couple of reasons I feel personally affected by this, and here are my examples of my current Quincy. Respectfully, I'd like to make this suggestion," and THAT was the bulk of your thread?

But as is, this thread is literally "Well actually fuck this entire update, fuck all of it I hate it" and then a tiny paragraph about suggestions at the very end of huge paragraphs, basically an enormous rant at us. And then you have the impudence to end that by saying "I do hope that the mods will listen and take something from this" as if you have all the wisdom in the universe and the discussion of SEVEN people on the mod team was done out of our asses. I'm sorry, but that's just rude.

You didn't even allow the update to exist for one day without going into a rant. You didn't try it. You didn't even attempt to design off of it, even briefly. You didn't listen to US when we created this. If you'd tried it a bit and then disliked it, you'd have had more grounds. But you've not even tried it. You didn't listen to us for a fraction of a second. You went right into ranting, and then asked that we listen to you.

Well, I looked at what you had to say. I disagreed with all of it. Z and John did too. We read your rant. We "listened," if you will. We discussed. And we got MULTIPLE other people who play Quincy liking this.

Tackling your suggestion, then what would you do about how static the release form is? You are still confined in a very niche type of build. This is what scared so many players away from the Quincy race to begin with, was the lack of versatility and the strictness of it. The constraints on creativity. It was a build from an old time, from years ago when Zou wanted to stay as up to date as possible and not all the available information on Quincy that we now possess had been released or available.

So, I've looked at your suggestion, too. And I've told you what I think is wrong with it as well. I took two sentences to tell you history of the current model and one of several major reasons we switched to begin with. No huge paragraph rant on it.

We don't mind critiques to our system. Those keep us fresh. But when they're nothing but rants and hate, and almost none of it is productive until a tiny paragraph at the end, I find myself flabbergasted.

In my opinion, you owe each and every mod who worked on this update an apology for what I'm seeing as brash, reckless, disrespectful behavior toward a team that wanted nothing more than to create a cooler option for you.