Item Rehaul Feedback

[Zeich Yajuu]

Alright folks, you've seen the item rehauls. Now, we want your feedback and thoughts on the matter here! Please feel free to let us know what you think, what can be improved, etc. Keep it respectful though, please!

[Marcus Cole]

Omg these are the best!

-Anonymous member

[Arantima Kawada]

I Agree whole heartedly with this Anonymous member!! i love these changes.. Made my head a bit explody with the Torcs i had to redo but Thank you allllll for your hard work!

[Deleted]

items are good and worth it now -sage nod-

[Deleted]

The hero demands new swords and helmets. Gib me.

[Ranth]

On the whole, this looks like a great step towards items becoming relevant again and I can see how much work has gone into this, so great job to everyone involved in making this happen! That being said, I have some (what I intend to be) constructive feedback after combing through the details of the new system a few times.

1. Durability

Durability: This is basically how well an item can stand up to attacks. If an item is hit by any attack that surpasses its IP, it takes damage equal to half of the superior attack. For example, if a sword has an IP of 600, an attack of 700 would damage it for 350 of its durability. A normal item's durability should be equal to 3x its base IP for defensive items, and 2x its base IP for other non-consumable items, though exceptions can be made as a bonus (in exchange for relative drawbacks) or as a drawback (weakening durability, but gives more bonuses for being frail).

The biggest upfront problem with this is that it really punishes melee weapons and armour and has more or less no effect whatsoever on ranged weapons, trinkets, consumables or accessories that just have bonus effects attached to them. In the example given in the explanation of how Durability works, the weaker of the two weapons would break after any two hits from the other weapon during the course of an entire thread. Personally, I feel that breaking a weapon shouldn't be set up as a common occurrence but rather the result of a single post of intense focused combat/ an awesome technique/ one character totally overpowering the other.

To that end, for what it's worth, I'd suggest steering more towards a system where an item will only break when it's Durability is exceeded by the power of a single attack or exceeded by 50%-100% by the combined total of all attacks made during a single post (assuming that enough attacks land to reach this threshold) so that items aren't whittled down over time like we're playing Breath of the Wild. Not only would this make items seem more worthwhile (especially in DE scenarios), but it's also less math and easier to strategise and plan around breaking/ avoiding someone else breaking your items.

2. Ammunition

I read through the various sections of the hat and clogs item thread etc and I didn't see any information on the following:

-Ammunition pricing (is it the same system of [Minimum Class + X/Class?] Do we buy in sets of 10 or one bullet/ projectile at a time? etc)
-Are there any limits on how much ammunition that can be carried by a person? Can I buy a million bullets and carry them around with me without being encumbered? I ask this because I've seen how anime logic allowing people to carry essentially unlimited ammunition can be abused.
-Are there limits on how many bullets/projectiles that I can fire in a single post? I ask this because I've seen how unlimited projectiles in a single post can be abused.

In general, I think that projectile weapons need to be balanced more carefully than melee weapons because they have the potential to provide a very safe, very cheap method of doing combat (I mean cheap in terms of reiatsu and stamina expenditure) that isn't much fun to play against in a competitive setting.

This is just my 2 cents anyway, I think it's fantastic that so much work has gone into this and I really look forward to seeing how things develop!

[Zeich Yajuu]

I want to address the points made here, not as a counter, but to add my own input on the matter and see if it doesn't sift up some more change needs. Your points are fantastic, Ranth, and I'll keep them in mind as we go forward and improve upon items as a whole.

Durability - the reason behind giving items a static durability is because unlike techniques, which have a set cost and tend to be ephemeral, items are solid and long-standing as long as they remain undamaged. You can block or counter a technique, or simply dodge it, and the effects of it tend to be lost and gone. With a weapon, a dodge or a block doesn't stop it from being used again.

So by giving items a durability, it ensures that they are not infinite value for a set cost. If they're used to block or are struck directly, they wear down. Excessive attacks will one-shot them (i.e. an attack equal to 2x their durability at -1 - 1 greater Class, or equal to their durability at 2+ Class advantage), but otherwise it takes a few hits. Now, I will say that numbers may need to be tweaked upwards. Even though an item can break three times before it's lost permanently outside of a DE thread, the durability count might still be a bit low, so we can look into adjusting that upwards.

Another reason I personally gave items durability was to again give value to Ryo. If items break, then it gives people a reason to spend their money rather than sit on it again. Going forward, we're actually looking into ways to improve Ryo acquisition to make this a more viable reason, so this may not sit as strongly just yet. But it is one of the facets considered when making items breakable over time.


Ammunition - Check the drawbacks, as each "pack" has a set amount of ammunition. So you're paying the single price of 2000 + 1000/Class for a single pack of RE-F-1 Ammo, which is good for 1000 total Reiatsu in shots. For the pistol, that's twenty shots.

As for carrying capacity, that reminds me of something I intended to write but never did in the new Custom Items section. You do have to generally have a capability to carry items, not just have the black hole pocket where you can constantly pull more out. That's the purpose of the Utility Belt, letting you carry around multiple items as a result, but you can also assume that you can generally only hold a few swords on you (trying to carry more than two on a side would be extremely cumbersome, for example), or that you'd need some kind of holsters for your guns, unless you want to hold them at all times. The intent is to leave it up to the players how they intend to carry these tools, but it still has to be within reason. The only item that makes me concerned about abuse in this manner is the use of a Black Market item that allows for essentially infinite storage, but then it does state that it's not practical to retrieve anything in the midst of battle with it. This eases my concerns and will have me watching threads going forward to see if changes need to be made.

There is no real limit to shots per round at the moment short of running out of ammunition, and with the lack of ability to carry infinite ammunition, this should hopefully ease concerns. On that note, however, I may need to make the RE-model firearms incapable of firing without the Reiatsu packs just like the normal models can't fire without ammo packs, in order to ensure the issue with unlimited projectiles is not encountered.

Please, keep up the feedback, and let me know what you think on my responses! I'm already taking notes on the next update and improvement of items, so I'd like to keep this trend going!

[Francis Grin]

Could we perhaps replace the old template with the new one in the actual Item Creation area? Almost wrote down my first set of Shihoin items on it without noticing.

[Kamikawa Hibiki]

I want to start by saying that I really appreciate all the work that went into it, and I generally feel like it's a solid step forward. My intent here is to ask a lot of questions, not because I think what's presented is bad, but simply because I'm a munchkin and want to try to break the game BEFORE it causes a problem, rather than in the midst of a thread by mistake. It's also possible that I missed an obvious answer that fixes my concerns due to my own fatigue. Either way, I do want to stress that these are intended as constructive criticism, and I think that the overall concepts are solid.

Chiming in that, at first glance, I like Ranth's idea on durability. I feel like the current system is a bit math heavy with the wear and tear.

One thing I may have missed: how are classless attacks such as a normal sword swing handled? I'm guessing it's treated as just stat vs stat, like other things are?

I can understand armor getting busted up and stuff, but what about situations where I'm dealing with three simultaneous threads, and a sword gets broken in all of them? Does it instantly vanish in my other threads? If so, it breaks immersion. If not, it lets me abuse it by setting it up with two breaks and then just bulk starting threads so I can avoid buying a new sword for a long time.

I do understand the intent, but I also see problems with the idea of breaking non-consumable items as a matter of course rather than as a noteworthy occurrence. I would rather see higher costs on non-consumable items in exchange for not having to deal with NDE permanent breaks, and only having to worry about breaks in DP/DE threads. As far as I was aware, the entire point of NDE is supposed to be no lasting consequences or cost when compared to DP, and it feels off to be to have items be the one exception.

Maybe it's just because most of my PvP is as a HWD, but surpassing the IP thresholds with Pulley/Gate/Impact/Blut running around seems like it would end up being trivial to obliterate someone's sword (I can currently break a spiritual steel sword at max IP with two pulley-aided swings if I understand these values and how classless interactions work), and it takes it from being just a strategic battle move into a way to piss people off OOC if they can't afford to replace an item. Additionally, you then have to metagame around "should I use this item in this fight, or can I not afford to replace it if this character pulls out that stat boost technique." For non-items, it's a non-issue because you can just stat boost back at someone, but with static IP, I have no good way to deal with it short of predicting the use of a stat boost IC and putting an item away, or just not using it at all.

Now I'm not saying this is necessarily stuff that will happen constantly, but at least for Yoko, I'll shamelessly admit that almost all of my threads end by me using Impact. Maybe this just means that stat boosts are dumb, but if we don't remove them, it basically means my opponents may want to leave items home against her so they don't have to deal with them getting destroyed on a whim through her usual finishing move.

Again, I want to say that I think a lot of this is on a very good trajectory, and I appreciate all the work that's been done. I think the idea of durability is largely fine in DP/DE threads. I'm only trying to offer a devil's advocate perspective in order try and help bring them up to a level where I'll actually feel comfortable using them in threads, rather than wanting to leave them at home all the time.

[Zeich Yajuu]

Aug 10, 2018 19:55:23 GMT -5 Francis Grin said:

Could we perhaps replace the old template with the new one in the actual Item Creation area? Almost wrote down my first set of Shihoin items on it without noticing.

Fixed!

Aug 10, 2018 19:59:51 GMT -5 Kamikawa Hibiki said:

Lots of very good suggestions.

Alright, so taking a few notes because you've raised some great points:

-Removing perma-break in non-DE threads. Originally, my intent was to make them breakable to keep Ryo cycling rather than building up since most people only do NDE threads. As a result, people would buy their items, then resume stockpiling and capping on Ryo with nothing to spend on again. I do hope that consumables can fill that gap again, but that was my intent. That being said, removing perma-break status in NDE is something worth considering.

-Durability on items. Yes, I am aware it's a little mathy (damage/2 removed from durability is the standard formula), but as I said, the point was to have them wear down in fights, not just be a permanent utility for a single cost. I would rather keep the durability system in, but perhaps tweak the numbers upwards. Just like techniques consume Reiatsu and stamina, item use consumes Ryo through the breaking of items and the repurchasing of such. However, we're still looking into Ryo acquisition and how we can balance it against costs to make this effective.

-Classless v. Stat: As with all basic blows like punches and kicks, they do not clash Class-to-Class. With stat boosts, that does make it a bit riskier to use items, but that's part of the reason we also have limits on stat boosts. It may be we need to eye stat boost limits a bit more, perhaps having long-term boosts count as multiple over a set time so that people don't just keep one active as long as possible, but that's something we're going to look at and see as items are used in current threads and give us the opportunity to see them in actual action.

[Ranth]

Aug 10, 2018 16:03:55 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

Durability - the reason behind giving items a static durability is because unlike techniques, which have a set cost and tend to be ephemeral, items are solid and long-standing as long as they remain undamaged. You can block or counter a technique, or simply dodge it, and the effects of it tend to be lost and gone. With a weapon, a dodge or a block doesn't stop it from being used again.

So by giving items a durability, it ensures that they are not infinite value for a set cost. If they're used to block or are struck directly, they wear down. Excessive attacks will one-shot them (i.e. an attack equal to 2x their durability at -1 - 1 greater Class, or equal to their durability at 2+ Class advantage), but otherwise it takes a few hits. Now, I will say that numbers may need to be tweaked upwards. Even though an item can break three times before it's lost permanently outside of a DE thread, the durability count might still be a bit low, so we can look into adjusting that upwards.

I definitely agree that the overall bang for buck on items is something that will take some careful balance, but I'd still advocate for less focus on managing the Hit Points of your items and more on being able to have fun. Since items are available to everyone equally for the most part, I'd say that this problem is mitigated somewhat. So long as items don't start overpowering release weapons and effects then I'd say we can afford to be fairly generous in terms of item durability. Play testing will be the best/ only way to know for sure though.

Aug 10, 2018 16:03:55 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

Another reason I personally gave items durability was to again give value to Ryo. If items break, then it gives people a reason to spend their money rather than sit on it again. Going forward, we're actually looking into ways to improve Ryo acquisition to make this a more viable reason, so this may not sit as strongly just yet. But it is one of the facets considered when making items breakable over time.

I respectfully but fundamentally disagree with this philosophy. As Pie said, I'd much rather see items be priced significantly higher than to have to repeatedly buy back the same weapons over and over. There is so much room to introduce other things to spend Ryo on that I feel it's wasted potential to try and set up a Ryo sink like this. As a couple of throwaway examples: allowing characters to purchase pets/ npc companions, land, improvements to their squad/ organisations or even providing funding to various factions in return for boons/ potential benefits during Canon events could all be solid avenues for Ryo expenditure that are totally removed from items and can be put at steep price points to give people a reason to save for stuff. But that's starting to get off topic, so I'll move along xD

Aug 10, 2018 16:03:55 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

Ammunition - Check the drawbacks, as each "pack" has a set amount of ammunition. So you're paying the single price of 2000 + 1000/Class for a single pack of RE-F-1 Ammo, which is good for 1000 total Reiatsu in shots. For the pistol, that's twenty shots.

Ah I see that now, I was mostly curious about the guidelines for pricing custom ammo and if that would change between ammo types (e.g. lead bullets vs fie/ice/lightning bullets vs rockets)

Aug 10, 2018 16:03:55 GMT -5 Zeich Yajuu said:

The only item that makes me concerned about abuse in this manner is the use of a Black Market item that allows for essentially infinite storage, but then it does state that it's not practical to retrieve anything in the midst of battle with it. This eases my concerns and will have me watching threads going forward to see if changes need to be made.

Easiest way to balance this (speaking from the perspective of FT where ex quip mages exist as a core archetype) is to just put a cool down on how often you can reach into the 'bag' during combat.


Keep up the hard work!